1899 carbine blocks

[5MadFarmers]

Ignoring some flyers and the overstamps.

Yes Virginia, there is overlap on carbines and rifles. That has been established.

I call them by "block." So blocks 1,2, and 3.
Block 1: 225691-230581
Block 2: 279816-289054
Block 3: 341229-362097

Yes, some exist outside of those blocks. In fact I think I own one outside of those blocks. I could check but I'd just confuse myself.

226454 (Ned Butts) and 226254 (Chuck) overlap a rifle 226891 (oldguns.net) so serial verification was done on overlap.

Outside of the roads, sanitation, medication, health, public baths, what have the Romans ever done for us? Oops, wrong list

Outside of over-stamps, flyers, and sundry other misfits those are the carbine blocks for 1899 carbines. If you run into block expanders I'd be interested in hearing about them. I'd also be interested in hearing about rifles inside those blocks. Pictures would be needed - else it's a rumor.

[thorin6]

So when are you going to start working on the M1898 carbines?

[5MadFarmers]

Funny you should mention that - just bought one.

This is going to sound so arrogant and final of me. Can't be helped.

1898 carbines are similar to Doritos chips. They're darned tasty and you'll just consume the entire bag. Sadly you won't get any real nutrition out of it. I suspect I'm far enough along where I can say, with some reasonable certainty, that if there are people who can determine what an "as made" 1898 carbine should be - I'd be one. Did that little exercise some time ago in fact. Then we get into faith. Makes me feel like eeyore. Oh bother, there are very few, if any, as made 1898 carbines.

So it's all very unsatisfying. 1899s? Those identify themselves. 1898s? We'll just have to go with best effort.

131K seems to be a good range for them.

[jon_norstog]

5Mf, guys,

Here's another angle for you: There were **events** taking place in 1898. So the generals in Cuba were issuing urgent calls to their supply and logistics people. These calls were probably being passed down the line until they got to the armory. I'm thinking the calls were mostly for more rifles because Shafter, Kent, Wheeler, and all the other generals were infantry generals. Notwithstanding the performance of the !st NY Volunteers, the 9th and 10th Cavalry and other mounted units that carried their krag carbines dismounted.

The US Army went from 15,000 men to 150,000 overnight. That's just RA and US Volunteers. In a neat and tidy world, all your regulars are issued the regulation service arm. At the front, regulars and US Volunteers with Krags were known to kick state volunteer troops out of their trenches - they didn't want the state troops to give away the position when they fired their trapdoors. Even if they needed the extra bodies.

The generals wanted (this is my guess) to see all the frontline troops armed with Krags. In war, the generals get what they want. SA responded by ramping up production and making as many rifles as possible. If they made a few carbines, it was probably only after reaching their quota of rifles for a given period.

OK, then comes 1899, the troops are mustering out and the need for weapons diminishes. SA then makes enough carbines to last 50 years at the rate the U.S. Cavalry was consuming them.

SA keeps making rifles, too. The latest theory of war from the Continent is a war of mass mobilization - huge conscript armies strike deep into enemy territory and win the war in a week or two. That was the von Schlieffen Plan, for instance. I think the US must have bough into it, otherwise why did SA make 460,000 Krags? Same reason Sweden, a country with 8 million people, needed a half-million Carl Gustav rifles.

Anyway, I'm thinking if there are trends in the mix of SA's product, there are probably documents. 5MF, that's what you do, right? Dig up the documents.

jn

[5MadFarmers]

5Mf, guys,
Anyway, I'm thinking if there are trends in the mix of SA's product, there are probably documents. 5MF, that's what you do, right? Dig up the documents.

jn

Already have the documents. Going back much further than that. Much later too.

The answer to what you covered is in this document:

http://5madfarmers.com/230/militia.jpg

Handy having the library we do.

The 1898 carbines, and putting them into blocks, is a different problem though.

[Dick Hosmer]

131K seems to be a good range for them.

A spike there to be sure, but only a minor one - the REAL hot spot is around 118000, by a factor of about ten. The SRS data, limited though it is, shows a pretty definite picture, IF their sampling was anywhere near uniform, of course. I have a spreadsheet which I can convert to Excel and post, I guess. Viewing as a graph would then prove instructive.
:-)

[Karl]

"Here's another angle for you: There were **events** taking place in 1898. So the generals in Cuba were issuing urgent calls to their supply and logistics people. These calls were probably being passed down the line until they got to the armory. I'm thinking the calls were mostly for more rifles because Shafter, Kent, Wheeler, and all the other generals were infantry generals. Notwithstanding the performance of the !st NY Volunteers, the 9th and 10th Cavalry and other mounted units that carried their krag carbines dismounted."

jn

Jon, One slight correction to your post, I believe that General Joseph Wheeler was a Cavalry officer, not an infantry officer. If you read his memoirs from Cuba, there are several messages that complain about quartermaster and supply issues, mostly to do with rations, which were inappropriate for the tropics. HTH. Take care, Karl

[5MadFarmers]

A spike there to be sure, but only a minor one - the REAL hot spot is around 118000, by a factor of about ten. The SRS data, limited though it is, shows a pretty definite picture, IF their sampling was anywhere near uniform, of course. I have a spreadsheet which I can convert to Excel and post, I guess. Viewing as a graph would then prove instructive.
:-)

Not touching that one with a 100 foot pole. :evil6:

I'll stick with the number I mentioned thank you. ;)

[jon_norstog]

Karl,

Of course you're right. I remembered that after I hit "send" and figured someone would catch it. But I still think that the powers that be at the time were crying for more rifles. As 5MF notes, Congressional committees were not above micromanaging to the extent of deciding how many rounds of ammo the Military Academy gets.

But my thought here is that the impetus for "more rifles" came from the generals ... although they may have gotten House and Senate committees involved, to.


jn

[Stuartr]

I have an 1899 carbine "wanna be" which will never be more than that, but I'd like it to get a little more respect than a common "BUbba Dun It." Serial Number 467xxx (tail end of receiver production) is connected to a bunch of 1899 parts (see thumbnails). How did this orphan receiver end up married to this widowed carbine? It's reasonable to assume the receiver went into the spare parts bin in 1904-05, and came out to replace the original. Or did it? The value of the parts are such that a common Bubba could buy an original for what the pieces cost.
So, did replacement/maintenance operations like this go on? Could it be CMP? Did Yenta the Matchmaker arrange something? Can anyone suggest a theory to make me feel better about my carbine?

[5MadFarmers]

This not going to be good news - don't shoot the messenger. Bubba does things to make him happy and is typically honest. Some would say misguided but at least he's honest. Your rifle isn't a "Bubba" as it was meant to deceive.

Let me cover what I can see from the pictures you included.

Stock. Clearly the 1899 style yet has an 1898 cartouche. Likely somebody rented themselves a stamp.
Rear sight. The ladder was stamped twice for good measure. Notice the two "c" marks? That's a rifle ladder as carbines are graduated differently.
Rear sight. Slide is a rifle slide - carbine slides are different.
Side plate. Doesn't match finish on receiver.
Barrel band. Doesn't match barrel.

If I was to form an opinion on your rifle I'd say somebody made that to sell it as a carbine. The bogus markings on the stock and sight are clearly intent to pass it off as something it's not.

On that C marked sight. The reason that the carbine sights are marked, if we use logic, is so they'd not confuse the carbine and rifle sights. They're graduated differently as the barrels are different length and thus so is the trajectory of rounds coming out of them. Stamping "c" on a rifle sight won't change the trajectory so there would be no legitimate reason to do it.

Sorry for the bad news.

[jon_norstog]

Stuart,

The glass is half full, assuming you didn't pay too much. You got a pretty decent replica made with real SA parts. It's a fake but it's a fairly decent one. I would appreciate for what it is and shoot hell out of it. Can you use Krags in cowboy action? When you go to sell/trade it, don't forget to mention that it's a fake.

jn

[Dick Hosmer]

Not touching that one with a 100 foot pole. :evil6:

I'll stick with the number I mentioned thank you. ;)

Doesn't break MY heart, since mine is 131024, AND I'm well aware of your (low) opinion - which I do not necessarily share - of SRS; but why do you consider 131K to be the main range? With the caveat of "questionable uniformity of distribution of recorded data" there is still the fact that one 1K block has 48 entries, another has 52, and the 131K block has but 8. Even allowing for a huge skew - that still seems to put the high point somewhat earlier?

[5MadFarmers]

I don't think I called it the "main range" - just said I was much more fond of that area than the earlier one listed - one which I'm not fond of at all.

Remember those Orson Wells commercials for Paul Mason's wine? It's not time yet.