View Full Version : Should native Indian traditional hunting methods be allowed?
Ken The Kanuck
07-18-2010, 08:52
You may be aware that we have a much higher percentage of population for native Indians in Canada than what there is the U.S.
In many northern rural communities the majority of people are native Indians.
Many have always claimed that they have the right to pursue their traditional hunting and gathering unimpeded by the government or laws. And in fact this is pretty common. The government seems to be reluctant to charge native Indians, expecially with anything to do with hunting or fishing.
As a matter of fact they even apply a different standard of law for murder, etc. because they are native Indians, but that's another story.
What do you think? Should native Indians have the right to practice traditional hunting methods?
KTK
I can't answer that because (a) I'm not a Canadian, and (b) I don't know the law in Canada. I would say that if the navitve hunting methods are the result of a treaty then they should be allowed. If they are provided for by simple civil law I think that my answer would probably be no. If they native people are just flat out poaching then the answer would definately be not
Griff Murphey
07-18-2010, 09:07
Most of the film I've seen of this involves using motorboats and modern high power rifles. How is that TRADITIONAL except maybe traditional for the last 50 years? I respect the rights of the Native people of both the U.S. and Canada to engage in subsistence hunting, but they are usually not using sealskin Kayaks and harpoons anymore. I mean, we whites used to bust buffalo out of train car windows with .47/90's just for grins and furs. THAT was once "traditional" and we don't do THAT anymore....
Ken, is this hunting on tribal lands or public land? If it's tribal lands, then definitely yes. On private property with permission of the owner, yes. Public property, I'm not sure. That one I might lean toward yes with a specialty hunting license being needed. The only reason I go toward the specialty license is that otherwise, anybody out poaching would claim to be an Indian.
Ken The Kanuck
07-18-2010, 09:23
Art, the question is applicable to both the U.S. and Canada.
Tom, Public lands, but you bring up a good point.
KTK
Art, the question is applicable to both the U.S. and Canada.
Tom, Public lands, but you bring up a good point.
KTK
I know it is which is why I asked the question. I am not sure of the circumstances you are referring to. There are plenty of folks who for one reason or another think they have a right to do something against the law.
If it involves killing whales, dolphins and baby seals, no. Otherwise, I don't give a damn.
Basically if its protected by treaty - yes. Otherwise probably not even if it's legal. In other words I can't give a simple yes or no answer.
Some of the "traditional" methods such as running a entire herd of buffalo over a cliff and using black walnut husks to poison all the fish in a pond or stream are just too extreme. In addition it also sends the message "us" versus "them" mentality and there is WAY too much of that already going on especially here in the U.S.
:icon_salut:
John Sukey
07-18-2010, 10:59
I think that Ken would have a few words to say about the native Canadians with their "traditional" pot farms.
i think that ken would have a few words to say about the native canadians with their "traditional" pot farms.
lol :-)
Ken The Kanuck
07-18-2010, 12:20
Some of the "traditional" methods such as running a entire herd of buffalo over a cliff and using black walnut husks to poison all the fish in a pond or stream are just too extreme. In addition it also sends the message "us" versus "them" mentality and there is WAY too much of that already going on especially here in the U.S.
:icon_salut:
Right on the money Red, you figured out where I was going.
I believe that conservation and decency should supercede hunting and fishing rights.
Just because it's legal for you to hunt a species to extinction should you? Just because you can tie a sharp rock on the end of a stick and go stab an animal should you?
I'm not too sure what the laws are but I know that one of the primary rules for an ethical hunter is to dispatch the animal as humanely as possible.
Unfortunately we are seeing more and more of a society where certain members of our country feel that they are special and only certain laws apply to them.
Ya got there quick Red.:icon_salut:
KTK
JB White
07-18-2010, 01:36
The main problem with 'traditional methods' is that they are being exploited as commercial means for profit rather than simply feeding the families. This not only applies to hunting but fishing as well. An area I used to fish became lame because Indians used their traditional methods taken to extreme for harvesting Walleye.
The reservation was making money off a Friday night fish fry while I was restricted to not only a catch limit but a slot limit as well. Doesn't matter that I'd catch and release 99% of the time. After a while the fun of fishing goes away when there are no fish to catch.
Same applies to hunting. If a tribe has a traditional seal hunt or whatever that's fine by me. When they harvest seal skins as a year long business because they think they have a right to...no way.
Wait, we're talking about seals? Whole different story then! Now I'm a definite yes, but only if I can go. Even ran to the cellar to make sure I still had my official Wam-O seal hunting bat. OK, just kidding about the bat. It got confiscated when they caught me trying to sneak it in to Sea World.
After looking at the other opinions and getting more facts, I'd lean toward no, but could possibly say yes on tribal lands.
If "traditional" means bows and arrows or some such methods, OK. But they should be subject to the same game/fish limits as every one else, even on tribal land. Animals do not stay in one place! What has happened with muzzle loading is an example of "taking advantage"! It was suppossed to be a throw back and a primative way to hunt, now the in-lines have thrown that out the window. Same with bow hunting! Such equipement should be outlawed for muzzle and bow seasons, it was not meant to be that way!
If "traditional" means bows and arrows or some such methods, OK. But they should be subject to the same game/fish limits as every one else, even on tribal land. Animals do not stay in one place! What has happened with muzzle loading is an example of "taking advantage"! It was suppossed to be a throw back and a primative way to hunt, now the in-lines have thrown that out the window. Same with bow hunting! Such equipement should be outlawed for muzzle and bow seasons, it was not meant to be that way!
This is straying off topic but this is a sore spot with me.
Primitive hunting, especially with firearms, should mean just that. Hunting with a 'scoped in-line black powder rifle that looks like a Model 70 or Model 700 should not be what "primitive" hunting is about and I absolutely agree with Dave on that point. Black powder hunting should be done with 19th century, or older, system rifles using percussion caps or flint and "iron" sights. If a 'scope was allowed it should be an exact repleca 19th century model.
What's a real joke is that one of these in-line rifles with a modern telescopic sight is legal but a rifle like a percussion cap Sharps isn't in some states because the Sharps isn't a muzzle loader!!
The whole point of this retro hunting thing was to allow a return to the fieldcraft and marksmanship methods of a past period using the appropriate technology
Dave Waits
07-19-2010, 07:26
The problem is that the Native-Americans( See, I can be PC) take adventage of any opportunity you give them. For example, this is straying a bit but, some of the biggest, most profitable Casinos in this country are on Tribal Land run by Native Americans. I have a friend named Brad. He lives in the Yukon, Whitehorse to be exact. Right now the salmon are running up there. The 'Native Americans' stretch nets from bed to top, all the way across streams and rivers up there. Then when they're full of salmon they close them, and use Pickup Trucks to pull the nets ashore because there's thousands of pounds of Salmon in them. I never read about the use of Pickups in any Native-American fishing lore.
Subsistance hunting/fishing should be just that. Anything commercial should be off limits and as illegal as it would be for you or me.
As far as the Indians (see I'm not that PC) taking advantage. It's human nature. People take advantage of any perk they can get and if someone else dosen't have it shame on them, at least in the case of the vast majority of human beings.
I give you this gents to think about, if you're born on this continent, you are an American native, it's just that some of our ancestors got here a little earlier than the rest of them did........... All of our ancestors migrated here, & took land by right of conquest from others, whether your folks emigrated here 10,000 yrs ago or 400.
The historical lands of the Sioux was in Minnesota, Michigan & Wisc., it wasn't until they got the horses from the more recent arrivals did they spread to the upper Great Plains. & By the way, the earlier American emigres, caused horses to go extinct, along with the mastadons here on this continent.
I feel the same on cap & ball & flintlocks & compound bows as was stated above, a modern TC Encore ML, scope sighted is a 400 yd weapon. It has very little similarity to our original mountain/plains cap & ball rifles from the 1840's.
be safe, enjoy life, journey well
da gimp
OFC, Mo. Chapter
Ken The Kanuck
07-19-2010, 08:06
The trouble is guys that " Tradional Hunting " methods are often cruel as Red Pointed out. They should be banned for that reason only.
When folks ( Indians, First Nations, Native Americans or whatever you want to call them ) Live in their heated and air conditioned homes, wear there jeans and Goretex boots out to their F150, load up their quad or snowmobile, drive to the 7-11 to fuel up and buy some beer and food for lunch and then head out to do some subsistance hunting and fishing claiming that this is a traditional right.
Well this seems to be a odds as the traditional Indians lived in a hole in the ground or a skin tent, maybe a planked longhouse. The smoke from the indoor fire made most of them blind in their 40's. They wrapped their feet and bodies in leathers, only ate what they had killed and prepared. Then they would have to walk to where the hunting or fishing was good, get close enough to their prey to try to drive a stick with a sharp rock tied to the end of it far enough into the animal to mortally wound it. Then track it as it died, then cut it up and carry it back home.
The two examples hardly sound the same do they?
KTK
By the way., my wife is 3/8 Cherokee, she & our daughter can legally posesss a bald eagle wing bone whistle & use owl feathers to tie dry flies. She uses an AR15, an M1 Garand or a 1903 Springfield to hunt deer & big game, not a bow made from Osage Orange & a sharp stick etc.
da gimp
If an Indian wants to live in the old ways then that Indian should be allowed to hunt in the old ways. Not for profit and not part time. Lets face it, the era of the pre casino Indian is just about gone and so are his traditions.
John Sukey
07-20-2010, 12:56
da gimp , you have a point. Want to know why we have Apaches in Arizona? They were originaly plains indians, but were driven out of their territory by the souix.
Slavery? Nothing new the "native americans" also had them, not to mention the Mexicans who killed Indian men and used the women and kids as house servants. Then we have the Spanish who invaded in the first place, they had the priests convert the indians and then forced them into their silver mines.
Of course we have that guy in the white house whose ancestors rounded up slaves to sell to dem "evul white folks" Oh by the way, the"peculiar instution" ia alive and flourishing on the African continent.
My apologies for getting so far OT
Just a funny, Tucson was founded in 1746 by an IRISHMAN, Hugo O'Brian working for Spain.
The Navahos kicked the Apache off their tribal lands is my understanding & forced them into even smaller hunting grounds of less abundance of game & water.
da gimp
I'd heard it was the Souix when they moved in from the east. I also read that the Apaches hated the Souix after that and there was much blood shed whenever the Souix intruded into their land afterwards. No doubt the Navajo were also instrumental in pushing the Apache off of land that the Apache had moved to in the Southwest. I'd read Kit Carson's accounts of how warlike the Navajo were as a people in the early days and how they'd fiercely resisted bing pushed off of their lands by the whites, which Carson was instrumental in effecting along with the military.
SPEEDGUNNER
07-21-2010, 08:35
No, and they shouldn't be able to travel without proper documentation either. We are getting too "PC" anymore, and it is going to come back and bite us in the butt!!
I understand and sympathize the Native American got a raw (capital R-A-W deal) from our forefathers, but they need to play by the same set of rules as all the other citizens and members of society.
John Sukey
07-21-2010, 11:41
Our forefathers also got a raw deal from other countries which is why many came here. Starting with the pilgrims who were kicked out of Europe.
Brian Davis
07-21-2010, 12:03
Right on the money Red, you figured out where I was going.
I believe that conservation and decency should supercede hunting and fishing rights.
Just because it's legal for you to hunt a species to extinction should you? Just because you can tie a sharp rock on the end of a stick and go stab an animal should you?
I'm not too sure what the laws are but I know that one of the primary rules for an ethical hunter is to dispatch the animal as humanely as possible.
Unfortunately we are seeing more and more of a society where certain members of our country feel that they are special and only certain laws apply to them.
Ya got there quick Red.:icon_salut:
KTK
That's the first thing I thought of, it depends on what you mean by "traditional".
Skewering them on a spear or firing arrows into them, well, OK. I would rather see the animal dispatched more quickly than that but then we have bow season here in the States.
Running a whole herd off a cliff & then butchering maybe 10% of them & leaving the others crippled & taking hours or even days to die in agony, no. Draining a pond & then walking out & picking up one fish in 20 & leaving the others to rot, no.
Depends on your definition of "traditional".......
I've got NO problem with their traditional hunting rights as long as they ONLY use traditional hunting weapons. Nothing made after 1880.
jon_norstog
07-21-2010, 08:23
Art, the question is applicable to both the U.S. and Canada.
Tom, Public lands, but you bring up a good point.
KTK
Treaty hunting rights are what the US gave in return for peace, right of unimpeded transit, and sometimes, usually, land. There are a lot of boilerplate treaties, especially from 1868 through 1876.
Tribes I'm with right now, Shoshone and Bannock, have hunting rights on "all the unoccupied lands of the United STates." That theoretically includes public lands anywhere in the US, but in phceries.ractical terms it means mostly Idaho, some M ontana, Nevada and Oregon.
The tribal govt. has its own F&G and they impose a lot of regs on the hunters. Limits, seasons, rules about wasting game, caliber of weapon, etc. The fisheries people are really active in Salmon recovery and are always out building redds and nest boxes, cleaning streams, and beating up Bonneville Power for more hatcheries. I do blieve thAT these efforts are starting to pay off, since the Salmon runs have gotten a lot stronger.
There are tribal members who poach. It's a crime and you can get your license revoked for it. of course it matters who you are. if you are connectd you can get away with things that ordinary people can not. But I guess that is true in the dominant society too ...
jn
jon_norstog
07-21-2010, 08:35
Follow up:
Year before last they started a "traditional" buffalo hunt at Yellowstone. That year the hunters were allowed to take 5 buffalo. So my buddy Sherwin Racehorse was chosen as one of the shooters, cause his G-grandfather was the Racehorse of Racehorse v. Wyoming. Anyway, he took along his 7 mag with "deer bullets." Even though I offered my 45-70!
He shot a bull and the animal ran, so he shot two more, same results. The tribal F&G men had to track and finish them. In the end they took 7 instead of 5 and there was a lot of "discussion" about that. Needless to say Sherwin did not get invited to next year's hunt.
Lacey,my secretary, went along. She was the only woman who brought a knife, a big f##ker she got at a truck stop. She skinned a couple buffalo by herself while all the other women just hung out camp making and drinking coffee. Anyway she gave me a bunch of backstrap, plus I got A stomach from Sherwin, made a batch of very smelly menudo. Lacey is a real buffalo woman, big and handsome, and able to carry her weight any time. I let her get away ...
Story of my wasted life.
jn
Ken The Kanuck
07-22-2010, 07:50
Thanks for the 2 great posts Jon.
It seems like the Indians in the States might have it together a little better in the States than in Canada when it comes to F&G. Up here it seems to be a way for some Indian folks to stick it up the white man's ass. With very little concern for the F&G.
There are changes brewing with tribal police and the like but unfortunately when the punishment is so often a "healing circle" well it's just a bunch of liberal hogwash. In today's world being banished from the tribe hardly carries the same weight as it did 500 years ago.
As you probably know here in western Canada we never signed many treaties with the Indians and this is coming to bite us in the ass. The redman have gotten a whole lot smarter when dealing with the whiteman and a handful of beads and a bottle of whiskey might get you laid, but no one is giving up Manhattan for it.
I have a problem with "traditional" hunting for 2 reasons. The first is that it's all B.S. how can a guy in a F150, etc. etc. ever get close to a traditional hunt? The other is than the methods are inhumane and wasteful and shouldn't be employed.
We hunt buffalo up here; I was fishing with a Chief of the Whitehorse nation in the Yukon last month. He told me that he took 2 buffalo last year and he had the good sense to shoot both of them on the side of the road where he could a picker truck to lift them. He also runs a traditional, back to the old ways camp for youths who have run afoul of the law or appear to be heading that way. He says that it is a good thing. I believe that it is only fishing and snaring and wood craft, he didn't mention any hunting involved.
KTK
Marine A5 Sniper
07-22-2010, 09:19
Follow up:
Year before last they started a "traditional" buffalo hunt at Yellowstone. That year the hunters were allowed to take 5 buffalo. So my buddy Sherwin Racehorse was chosen as one of the shooters, cause his G-grandfather was the Racehorse of Racehorse v. Wyoming. Anyway, he took along his 7 mag with "deer bullets." Even though I offered my 45-70!
He shot a bull and the animal ran, so he shot two more, same results. The tribal F&G men had to track and finish them. In the end they took 7 instead of 5 and there was a lot of "discussion" about that. Needless to say Sherwin did not get invited to next year's hunt.
Lacey,my secretary, went along. She was the only woman who brought a knife, a big f##ker she got at a truck stop. She skinned a couple buffalo by herself while all the other women just hung out camp making and drinking coffee. Anyway she gave me a bunch of backstrap, plus I got A stomach from Sherwin, made a batch of very smelly menudo. Lacey is a real buffalo woman, big and handsome, and able to carry her weight any time. I let her get away ...
Story of my wasted life.
jn
I had to laugh. I am famous for being able to make good process decisions under stress. Unfortunately, the decisions I make for myself suck. Lacey sounds cool. I fear women with big knives.:icon_rabbit:
Jim
mike24d20
07-24-2010, 11:18
When they kill off all the fish an animals in their areas, will they be after the animals in your area ? Hunting should fallow modern laws as these were put into place too protect all.
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