What's the rarest M1903 service rifle? No snipers.

[Lancebear]

Hey guys,

What's the rarest U.S. M1903 service rifle? No snipers, no NM, no prototype or experimental...issued rifle.

Think I remember an old post about this...but maybe it oughta' be revisited.

Kinda' remember somebody figured it was an early Remington of some sort (Maybe Chuck in Denver).

Maybe a USMC with papers also.

Also nix the Red Star Remingtons. They are standard Remingtons with a unique history but were not issued to GI's.

Hopefully this maybe thread will start a nice little sh$%storm. And we will all learn a whole bunch of stuff. Luv' a good SS.

All thoughts appreciated.

Lancebear

[Rick the Librarian]

I would say, in the following order:

1) A M1903/05 in 30-03

2) Rod Bayonet M1903

[Gary L. Bush]

03 LINE THROWING-RIFLE

This rifle should qualifiy as a rare issue rifle. I have seen only one in thirty years of seaching for Odd-Ball 03s and 03 gadgets.
Please refer to Brophy page 151

Gary L. Bush
P.S.
Since I have an A-2 and a two digit Remington 03 they should be ruled out as being rare.

[chuckindenver]

a true air service rifle.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

I would say any Mark I with its Pederson device intact that went to France (50 originals). Any of the stripped Springfields used by all the AEF squadrons with the exception of the attack squadrons (good luck finding those serial numbers or exact quantity) or the 825 (or more) Springfield specialty made Air Service Rifles known to have gone to France to the Air Service. One could hardly call a combat issued (and utilized) rifle a prototype. Ditto for the Bushmasters. The star gauged Maxim equipped rifles shipped to France would be quite rare, but again the serial numbers are unknown. The Springfields used at Pearl Harbor by the Marines on 7 Dec 41 would be rare, and some or even most of their serial numbers are known or accessible. Any Springfield used at Belleau Wood would be worth a fortune, but there were thousands of them.

As for rarity, a rod bayonet rifle isn't rare at all, they just exist in another state. The NM rifles may be the most populous of all. As for utter rarity for any group of 03's, the Niedner USMC rifles are hands down the most rare of all, but their status precludes them from this discussion. Specific rifles are of course rare by nature, as only one exists of each (York's rifle, Roosevelt's sporter, etc.). Do they count?

Is this what you had in mind?

Jim

[Rick the Librarian]

Just to clarify, I meant a RB rifle in it's "original state".

[Emri]

I would say, in the following order:

1) A M1903/05 in 30-03

2) Rod Bayonet M1903

I like his order also. I would rather have a 1905 30-03 that a rod bayonet.

Emri

[Kirk]

My guess is a 1903A2 so marked from SA.

[Don W]

I vote for an early Rock Island (30-06) that was issued with a RIA rod bayonet stock (altered to configuration of 1906).

How many RIA rod bayonet stocks have you seen??

My thoughts, Don W

[Lancebear]

Thanks Chuck,

I forgot about those.

LB

[Lancebear]

Thanks Rick,

I forgot about those two.

What I shoulda' posted is this...What is the rarest USGI issued M1903 manufactured in 30-06 caliber. Not a rod bayonet rifle, altered rifle, NM, experimental, or sniper?

Regards,

Lancebear

[Lancebear]

Thanks Gary,

A low numbered Remington crossed my confused mind. But certainly not a line throwing rifle.

LB

[Lancebear]

Hey Jim,

You present a lot to think about. Would guess all of the Bushmasters are in the ocean.

I should have excluded Rod Bayonets and altered rifles also. Too obvious.

I meant the rarest USGI issued M1903 rifle manufactured in 30-06 caliber...and not a RB, altered rifle, sniper, NM, or proto. That should narrow the window a bit.

Yea York's rifle, one of a kind and a standard issue '03. Teddy's rifle was a custom job.

A documented Belleau Wood rifle...ya' got my heart beatin' a little fast now. Is it impossible to find the serial numbers of any of those rifles? You would know.

Pearl Harbor rifle, that would be nice to have. My RIA rifle isn't a hit in the SRS but I kinda' remember it being not too far away from a Pearl rifle.

My uncle Ray, a USMC corporal was there the day of the attack. Said he jumped in a hole and another guy came along told him to get out, he said "Hell no, I was here first".
He was lucky enough to survive IWO and two other yet to be discovered hot landings.

Thanks for your input.

Death to tyrants,

Robert

[Lancebear]

Hey Don,

Good thought. Think somebody got lucky last year and posted photos on the old forum of a rifle with an altered stock. Don't remember if the rifle was RIA or SA. Also got it for a song if I member' right. Something else to look for. Thanks.

LB

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Hey Jim,

A documented Belleau Wood rifle...ya' got my heart beatin' a little fast now. Is it impossible to find the serial numbers of any of those rifles? You would know.

Pearl Harbor rifle, that would be nice to have. My RIA rifle isn't a hit in the SRS but I kinda' remember it being not too far away from a Pearl rifle.



I have a small portion of the Belleau Wood 03 serial numbers (there were thousands as stated previously). The chances of finding one of them are almost nil. I also have a Pearl Harbor Marine rifle (also a SRS hit for PH on an earlier date than 7 Dec 41) bought from the son of the Marine to whom it was issued at Pearl Harbor. He was at Schofield Barracks on the Big Day. The Marine later bought the rifle and did some competitive shooting with it (someone changed out bolt and made extensive trigger modifications I can't match to date - best 2-stage military trigger I have personally tested and matched to bolt - means it isn't as crisp with any other bolt). Neither of us knew the history of the rifle until after I purchased it. It is the least expensive 03 I own. I just regard it as an SRS PH hit rifle, as I have no idea if it was used on 7 Dec 41.

Jim;)

[Michael Petrov]

Because I don't collect issue rifles this will have to do., SA No. 684170.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/mjpetrov/France2-1.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper]

That will do.

Jim

[Lancebear]

Hey Jim,

Somebody's gotta' have at least a rifle with a receiver that was on a Belleau rifle. Maybe grampa shot a few deer with it.

Congrats on your Pearl rifle. SA, RIA? Original barreled receiver? What type of stock?

Have a probable USMC with an early "C" stock. You have seen photos. SA 1918 receiver with great 2-42 SA barrel. Haven't shot it yet (Soon) but the second stage trigger pull is special. Don't put your trigger finger on it unless you are aiming at a target or a thug you have to kill. Smooth as glass. Haven't put another bolt in it. Might try that to see what it feels like.

Thanks again for more info.

Robert

[Gary L. Bush]

If any body tuned in here owns any of the rare rifles mentioned above. PLEASE post pictures.:eusa_wall:
Gary L. Bush

[Gary L. Bush]

A 1903 A2 just to prove that they are not so rare. Now is the time to show the rare stuff
Gary L. Bush


http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={69531673-A0EC-4C1D-AE5A-7BE1243C67C4}

[inland44]

Can someone give me some more info on the Red Star Remingtons?? a WAG would be Russian issue but again just a guess. Ive not heard the term and just wondered what the unique history they had???

Thanks

[Kirk]

I don't believe 1493419 started out as an A2. The A & 2 were individally stamped after the Model 1903 as they fall below the rest of the characters. Many 1903s were "converted" into A2s. I've seen pictures of one A2 electropenciled on the receiver.

This is what one stamped during manufacture looks like.

[Lancebear]

Hey Gary,

Have a USMC '03 with eight Marine characteristics, rare bird. But have posted photos several times.

Here's a couple you might like. An Oneida WWII (sic?) leaf in pristine condition with a Marine peep. Front blade is also USMC. Early "C" stock is fine. Has RIA over FK in a rectangle on the left. Nice tiger stripe also. Not a hit in the SRS but falls in the middle of Marine rifle hits. SA 1918 receiver with 2-42 barrel with fine bore. Buttplate is really cool. Perfect blued fine checkered one with a blued lower screw. Wood is proud around the BP. Bolt is a W L2.

It has a lil' story but I didn't buy that, bought the rifle for a good price. I believe the story but I won't bore you with that.

Long live history,

Lancebear

[johnny l.]

How about a Hoffer-Thompson .22 that appears to be original?

[Don W]

Another A2 (receiver only) ~ hand inscribed


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b5da01b3127ccecabcd43932b800000010O08AZMnDdmzZMw e3nwA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Don W

[Kirk]

Nothing to do with the USSR. They are named such as some 60 1903s, imported from England, were sold through the Red Star Military Museum & Sales of Culver City, CA. How the rifles were imported is a fascinating story told by John Beard in "Man at Arms for the Gun and Sword Collector" magazine this past July (Vol 31, No. 4)

[Rick the Librarian]

A slight clarification - there were originally 200 of the Remington M1903s. Although only 60 of them were sold through Red Star, they all have been tagged with the descriptor "Red Star".

I did the picures and examined the rifles that appeared in John's article. Beautiful, beautiful rifles!


http://www.fototime.com./8F7E120DFE4DFC9/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com./BD90BD3630F24C9/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com./93A2C55DC86DC70/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com./C3323D45485ACAB/standard.jpg

[Emri]

Can someone give me some more info on the Red Star Remingtons?? a WAG would be Russian issue but again just a guess. Ive not heard the term and just wondered what the unique history they had???

Thanks

Article Rick mentioned and took photos for, but..........

It may help you initially with more info.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15358

By all means, if you are remotely interested in M1903 rifles, you must acquire and read the article Rick mentioned.

HTH,

Emri

[Johnny P]

I don't believe 1493419 started out as an A2. The A & 2 were individally stamped after the Model 1903 as they fall below the rest of the characters. Many 1903s were "converted" into A2s. I've seen pictures of one A2 electropenciled on the receiver.

This is what one stamped during manufacture looks like.

Weren't all the A2's converted from existing 1903's during WWII? Even though the A2 shown is very evenly stamped, it was still hand stamped.

[PhillipM]

It depends on your definition of a service rifle.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

The rarest 03 made by SA would be Teddy Roosevelt's one-of-a-kind 03. The rarest military 03 (non-sniper) would probably be one of the many individual variants made that did not get mass produced, like the one with the internal straight barrel flutes that was to improve accuracy. If you want a mass produced rifle, you start getting further away from "rare".

Jim

[Garandy]

Whether it is or isnt included in an M1903 collection, I think a documented Will Levin "Red Star"...from his family, is a safe bet to rise in value, and demand...if a book was written on early RA M1903's, with and without grasping grooves, a whole chapter could be written on these LL M1903's...then watch their prices...with their rarity jump [owner of 2 of original -200] :-)
Andy

[Tony-in-NH]

I thought you said you only collected "original rifles". I do not remember the factory appling red paint to the stocks. So the rifles were motified at some point.

[jgaynor]

No one has mentioned any of the .22 Springfields. I would think a training rifle counts as a service rifle. There was i believe a .22 cal subcaliber device similar to the A2 as well.
Regards,

Jim