A "gloat" score, from a few years back

[KBCraig]

I don't know if I posted this to the old forum or not, but it's worth repeating.

Everybody has one of "these" kinds of gun dealers in town, the old guy who tells widder wimmen their late husband's WWII bringback collection is just a bunch of old dusty rusty junk probably not worth more than a hundred bucks, but he feels sorry for them so he'll give a hunnert-an-a-half.

And then he gets the collection to his shop and couldn't possibly take less than $10k for it, and you're stealing the bread out of his chirren's mouths to offer any less.

You know the guy.

Anyhoo, about 2005 or so my local "that guy" had a rare new edition to his rifle racks. On my weekly cruffle-crawl, 98% of his inventory was the same as it had been every week for the previous decade. The deeper the dust, the more he raised his price. Discounting a piece because it had sat unsold for a dozen years? Unthinkable!

So, I'm casually walking through when I notice an un-dusty Enfield, and at first glance I think some heathen has grafted a bridge rear sight onto a No.1, and I almost dismiss it without a second glance, until something nags at me: there's no gap in the rear handguard where the rear sight should have been. Hmmm, maybe the butcher at least grafted the wood...

I pick it up for a closer look, and sure enough, it's a 1924 Sht.LE Mk.V, in perfect condition for its age. It's got the expected handling wear and storage scuffs, but no rust or evidence of use or abuse.

I carry it to the counter, where "that guy" sits a few feet away on his throne watching the clerk. I'm happy to play the sucker paying full retail for "some ol' smelly", because I don't dare give him any reason to re-examine what he's selling.

The clerk rings up the sale and I write the check, finally take a breath, and his beady little antennae finally perk up. "Say, what do you think that's worth, anyway?"

I normally wouldn't answer that for a professional dealer, but given his reputation I can't help myself: "Oh, about a thousand to twelve hundred, give or take."

I paid his sticker price of $299.95, plus tax.

He laughs it off and says, "Oh well, I probably should have looked that one up!", even though it's obviously he's turning various shades of purple.

I just smile and think, "Yeah, you probably still made $250 on it, so go right ahead and choke!"

I wouldn't normally tell exactly what I paid for a gun, but this one isn't going to be for sale in my lifetime. Hopefully my heirs will know better than to deal with "that guy", whoever he may be.

I think that was my next-to-last Enfield purchase. A couple of years later my lovely bride bought for me (okay, told me to go ahead and buy it), a nicely sporterized (wood only) Lithgow as a Christmas present. It's my only Aussie.

Money and time and interest since then just hasn't allowed me to pursue collecting. I even let my C&R lapse.

But, I do enjoy what I've got, and the memories that go with every piece in my collection.

Kevin

[Frederick303]

Let me get this straight:

You condemn a dealer who does not tell folks how much an item is worth in the resale market, but buys rifles at a significant discount so that he can make money in his business. You seem to feel this is wrong, at least morally.

You then find a rifle in his rack, at a price below what you think it is worth, in fact significantly below what you think it is worth. You buy it, without telling him the correct value prior to purchasing. You are proud of this.

How is your morality different than his, in both cases you are buying an item at below market value for your own benefit, is this not so? On what grounds do you condemn him, as I see no difference in your actions? I am not trying to ping you, just understand the subtle difference that makes your action worth note, yet finds his supposed actions to be of dubious moral standing.

[dave]

Revenge maybe? I would do the same but I don't know and have never known of such dealers, suspected a few, just did not deal with them!

[RWG]

I knew of such a person. Had a general store back in the farm country. He DID take advantage of folks not knowledgeable of the value of the guns they brought to sell to him. It's one thing to give yourself a break when doing a gun deal, after all a profit must be made, but an entirely different situation when a dealer rips folks off. That's pure greed. What goes around comes around and the locals quit dealing with him, not just guns but pretty much everything. The store was sold, torn down and someone built a house there. No idea where that crook moved to.
KBCRAIG, good for you, glad someone got the best of one of those sob types!

[tlvaughn]

The way I am reading KBCraig's story is that the shop owner was taking advantage of widows by telling them that "their late husband's WWII bringback collection is just a bunch of old dusty rusty junk" :eusa_liar:, wouldn't you consider that taking advantage of a situation? The owner has a right to buy rifles below market value so that he can sell them at market value for a profit, but that can be done honestly. The widows do not know what they have; however, the owner has somewhat of an idea.

As far as the purchase, the seller would not have priced it for less than he paid, so he still made a profit, just not as much as he could have. In this situation, KBCraig purchased a rifle at a great price :headbang: but did not take advantage of the situation since the owner priced it knowing he would profit from the sale.

See the difference?

BTW, welcome back KBCraig! :1948: I visit this site on a regular basis, but do not post that often!

[John Sukey]

:eek:Have they gone up that much? I paid about the same for mine as you did.

My bes find was a 31 trials T that bubba had cut the forend on and didn't have the scope. Took me years to restore it. Almost passed on it until I looked at the markings.

[Griff Murphey]

We had a hobby shop owner here in Ft. Worth; back in the 60's, he would give people $25 for a box of Lionel stuff; then would set out a pair of F-3's or a nice steam loco for $150, freight cars brought $5-10 used. He'd really steal it. Nobody could ever put anything over on him. No way was it ever a fair profit markup.

[Guamsst]

I know the guys you are talking about and it is fair to screw them over any chance you get. When a person says they want $150 for a $1,000 gun it is acceptable to pay that. If you offer them colser to the real value they have a propensity for changing their mind and you won't ge tthe gun at all.

When a person looks at a $1,000 gun and lies to the uneducated about it's value, that makes them fair game for anything you can put over on them.

Had a guy here wort me down for ages over a #1Mk3 with volley sights until I let it go for about $240. He then put it out for about $380. HOWEVER, I traded into it for less than I sold it for and this guy is justified to ask whatever he wants. I doubt it will move in the next few years around here though.

[Frederick303]

I re-read my posting and it might have sounded a bit flippant. That was not my intent, if it came across as that way, I apologize. I am not trying to ignite a virtual fight or start a p-ssing contest. I will try to restate my point, with a bit more background.

First off I should also mention I have seen dealers who would try to take advantage of anyone who walked through their door if they could to make a buck. Typically such dealers think they are smarter than anyone, but usually end up not doing well at all in the business, as they soon become known and somehow just cannot make it long term, as they lack repeat customers. There are certainly dealers that would take advantage of a widow; we have no disagreement with that. But the life of a retailer is not all that simple.

That said, I know two individuals that I consider friends who are gun dealers and I have on occasion set up at the Forks of the Delaware show to trade out some of my less desirable rifles and/or bits that I no longer need. I was involved in retail sales in my greener days as well. As such I have seen things from both side of the isle, so the following comments are not entirely without basis.

Now to the trade of buying and selling guns. There is an old saying (or so I am told, I am not a dealer), you make your money when you buy, not when you sell, which is to say if you buy at a low price you can make a good profit and a fast turn on your money. In retail sales that is what essentially matters, your margin per sale and your turn over time. All the sales, store set up, location, etc is set up to enhance these metrics. In typical retail trade on items not grocery like or with a turn over measured in hours, (such as appliances, clothes and the like), the typical mark up is on the order of 40 percent over invoice. The longer the turn time the higher the margin. Women’s items tend to have a higher mark-up, men’s items tend to have a lower mark up, especially when it comes to discretionary spending. Men are typically cheap, especially when it comes to their “play” dollars; they all want a “good deal” and that means a price below the accepted fair market value.

Guns and sporting equipment tend to fall in the male discretionary spending zone, so margins are not that good. In terms of firearms, very few dealers cam mark up new guns more than about 10~15 percent and get any sales, as most men will shop around for the best deal on such items. The profit is on items like ammunition and accessory sales, though with the internet it is getting difficult for any dealer to do well on these items, as they can be bought cheaper from on line sources. The cost of stocking all the items a chap might walk in and want to buy along with his new rifle is prohibitive, just in terms of the time value of money. Further with on line search engines the cost of knowledge has dropped, so an interested buyer can quickly, in 45 minutes or less becomes as well informed as well as the dealer on any particular item, its cost and where available at the best price. Guys will drive out of their way to save 5 percent, just consider your spending habits.

So how does a dealer make money on walk in trade, especially in this modern world where arbitrage is increasingly difficult, as the cost of every standard item is known and can be quickly determined though the use of a computer? The used gun market is the one place where the dealer has a reasonable ability to have a decent mark up, as long as he buys at a low price. By decent mark up I mean 50 percent or more, because he is only making 10 percent on his new guns. That is crucial to making any retail store a going concern, having some good deals with decent margin so you can get some quick turns on your cash and get folks to come to your store.

Now you may well bitch about the dealer then marking the gun up by 100 percent or more, but typically the dealer does not do that well. That is because he has to get folks into his store, and to do that, he must price his goods so that when a fellow walks in and sees an item that is in his interest region, he thinks “wow, that is such a good deal I should pick it up now”. The key to retail success is to get folks to keep coming back and that is one of the best ways of doing it, to offer the fellows a good deal. So a dealer that wants to get repeat business, to get folks to make the weekly or month stop in, must price his goods at below the typical “used” value of an item. That would typically be on the order of say 80~85 percent of the typical expected value. How can he do that, and get a reasonable mark up of 50 percent (or more) if he does not offer about 50 percent of the accepted market value of an item (which is typically what most dealers will offer for guns that walk in the door)? Thus on a 200 dollar gun (say a run of the mill Enfield), he offers 100, prices it at 175 and takes 170~165. The lower the price, the better the turn time and the more likely the customer is to come back, because in the long term you make your money on repeat sales, not any individual sale. That is the way a successful dealer operates.

Now to the issue of widow sales: To truly rob a widow is a sin. That said, is it the responsibility of the dealer to purchase the guns at near retail price from a widow? Why? In most cases what the dealer offers is a low price, in cash for all the items the women want to get rid of, many of which are not all that popular and perhaps cannot be sold for anything near their supposed “value”. While the sum is typically well below what the arms will sell for (33 percent of value would be probably about right), the widow is a free participant in the transaction and typically just wants to get rid of the items without a great deal of hassle. If the dealer is kind, he will allow the women to sell the arms on consignment with a 10 to 20 percent fee, but most of the widows just want to get the items out of their houses and take what is offered, they do not want to wait a year or more to get the maximum value. On mid level collector arms, a 6 month to year wait is not unreasonable if you are trying to get the accepted value price.

Consider also that when buying a complete collection, say of Enfield rifles, say 20~25 of them he might have to put out 5~10 thousand dollars (some snipers, a few rare ones and then a number of run of the mill but excellent condition rifles). In order to do that dealers have to have a large amount of ready cash on hand, and there is the time value of money to consider, at the moment it is at a minimum 2.35 percent per year (treasury rate) and in real terms more likely near 15~20 percent per annum (consider opportunity cost). So to keep the sum of money around to buy a big collection, (say 10 grand) he has to make at least 235 to 1,500 dollars off of the deal just to not be losing the value of his money. So this collection of 25 Enfields comes in, and the “book” value ~ 15,000 dollars, with much of the value locked up in the No 4 T (2500~3000) and the CLLE MKI*(1100~1500) down to items in the 200 to 250 dollar range. He might offer 6,000~7,000 dollars on the entire lot. Some of these items might be valued high such as a NZ marked 1942 Longbranch with early features in excellent condition (400~450), but lets face it, few collectors here will actually pay “accepted value” for such an item, to get a sale in his market he has to price such an item at closer to 300 dollars or even less and even then it is not that quick a sale. The truth is that when one is dealing with collector rifles of higher grade but not in the “rare” grade, most collectors prefer to hunt around to find one priced cheaply then pay the premium to get a really nice rifle. Most simply will not pay the tariff for such items, the thrill is finding the deal. The dealer might find that the sniper rifle has a barrel bulge (opps) or the mount is a repro (opps), the lens chipped or any other number of things which lower the value of the rifle to 2000 or under. A dealer will at times end up with a few dogs that he has to eat or at least take a loss on. The dealer does make a lot of money off of such deals, but it is not all profit and disposing of a mid-grade collection of nice rifles is not quite as easy or lucrative as one might expect. I have just scratched the surface of the pitfalls that a dealer must contend with to make a successful business and still have a reasonable prosperous life. Dealers exist for their own life, not as a service to the gun collecting public.

I ask once again, whose responsibility is it to set a correct price for the widow to sell?

Without being harsh, it is the responsibility of the dead husband or the sons to have a file with the value of the arms, and a realistic value at that, one that the widow putting the arms out for sale will not have any trouble selling them at, and still get a decent price. Most men do not do this, either because they cannot face the fact of their own mortality, they are lazy, or cannot face the idea of their treasured collection being broken up by their wife who really does not even like the hobby. Of those that do, many price their goods at unrealistically high prices, which then leave the widow with a problem selling. In such a case the widow may approach the dealer and he may indeed talk down the value of the entire collection, in as much as for him to move the rifles he has to sell them for a lower price then the normally accepted value, and certainly less than the enthusiastic collector thought his items were worth.

So back to the comments made by KBCraig, (and other comments put forward by folks here). The dealer gave you a good price of 300 dollars on what in my area of PA moves at the 675 to 850 dollar range, not 1,200 dollars. Yes one sees them at over 1000 dollar price (they are always still there at the end of the show), but they actually move for a lot less, because as I mentioned earlier, most guys want a “deal”. Now he likely paid only 100 or 150 dollars certainly no more than 200, but that if why he was able to offer you the rifle at the price of 300. You grab the deal without mentioning to him that he underpriced it, in fact you called him a sucker in your posting. The others posting also see no responsibility to pay fair value, indeed they would have clapped if KBCraig had managed to talk down the dealer a few dollars, as KBCraig obviously considered doing. So how is that action different in any way from a dealer buying items well below their market value to be able to put out at a price which both he and his customers are happy with? You feel that it is a badge of honor to buy a value for below its accepted value from a dealer, yet he is supposed to pay near retail and offer you good deals? Why do you expect him to live his life for your benefit, you do not live your life for him? Retail business is hard, and if you are successful at it you are going to have to work hard bargains when you have an opportunity, (which is why I am a professional and not in retail).

That is the essence of my posting; I am questioning your thought process. It would seem to me that the dealer mentioned at times offers some deals, as you said you often browse his store looking for deals. You must have found some or you would not be coming back. If he did not pay little for his goods, he could not price them attractively for you to come and find deals from time to time. You also mentioned that he had items priced at what seemed to you to be high value, at or above what you consider to be a deal. There is also a sale strategy and reason for that as well, but this posting is already too long. If you are interested I can elaborate on that as well.

Given your stated attitude, compared to the attitude you project on the dealer, I do not see the difference in morality between your act and his. Hopefully my long post has explained why I see it this way. Just a different point of view to ponder.

[Guamsst]

Frederick303 I think you missed the point that counts most. It was not that this dealer buys guns off widows for cheap. That is not a immoral practice. The problem was that the dealer was dishonest and misleads people by lying to them.

Personally, I try to get the person selling to qoute me a price. If they should say "what's it worth?" I usually say something along the lines of "Well, most people price them at $xx but they usually sell for $yy and I am willing to give you $zz" this tends to seal more deals than any games I have seen played. If a person offers me a $1,000 gun for $200 I'll take it. That's a good deal. If I were to seek out people with $1,000 guns and lie to them to convince them to sell it for $200 that is an old fashioned screwing.

I tend to pay more for Items I will keep. I also tend to question the morality less when I get a great deal on something I will keep. One of the first gunshows I ever set up at a guy had a very nice Savage No4Mk1 Enfield on his table for something like $125 I couldn't get the cash out quick enough. I guess he figured out or someone told him that he had it priced way too low. At the end of the show as we were walking out he looked at me and in a somewhat dissapointed tone said "well, goodluck on that Enfield I hope you make allot of money on it" I replied "oh, it isn't going anywhere, except into my collection" knowing I wanted the gun and I was happy to have it, made him light right up and he was suddenly very chipper.
Each situation has it's own morality, just like every person. I think we all enjoy seing people have things come back on them.
I think we all have run into the guy who offers insultingly low prices for your guns and asks insultingly high prices for his guns. I tend to do a fairly steady business, I buy low and sell low, I try to be as honest as I can and I am friendly. Biggest compliments I get are when someone walks in to a show and heads straight for my tables and when I get referals.

On another note, I know one guy here in Abilene who is friendly and honest and has prices as high as Pikes Peak. He will mark an old helmet $150 and when you ask about it he'll say "well, I paid $20 for it, I'd let it go for $40." His real price always depends on who you are, how friendly you are and how much he likes you. We get along great since he sold me about $300 worth of his stuff for $40.....lol

[KBCraig]

I'm all for free enterprise and profit and making every dime you can. I'm also for honesty.

The difference between the dealer and me is that the first time he asked me what it was worth, I gave him an honest answer. Knowing his history, like I said, he probably still made $200-250 on it. I don't know that he ripped off a widow; it was probably an estate sale. He was the best known dealer in town for years (at the time, he was the only dealer in town other than pawn shops), so people came to him for an expert opinion -- which he then delivered dishonestly.

Ever watch Pawn Stars? People love to hate how they "rip people off", but I don't: they answer honestly. They get an appraisal from an independent expert, then offer the seller 40-70% of that depending on how fast they think they can turn it around. Sellers know what it's actually worth before they decide.

Sukey, I haven't checked prices lately, but the going price on the auction sites at that time was about $950-1,200.

[Frederick303]

O.K., I get it now. He is dishonest. That says it all. Well in that case I see no problem with your action and i am sure that he did suffer seeing you walk out with a deal.

[tlvaughn]

...it is the responsibility of the dead husband or the sons to have a file with the value of the arms, and a realistic value at that...

This reminds me of a recent conversation I had with my wife. I was showing her a ledger I keep with all of the information on the rifles I own. Each rifle is tagged and coded and the date of purchase and purchase price are in the code. I wanted her to know how to determine the value of a particular rifle or the collection as a whole. I am under 40, so as you can imagine, she started asking me questions as to why I was telling her this. Simple response to her was that you never know what can happen and she needs to know what the value is.

[Guamsst]

I told my mom to price them all at $200 and any that don't sell right away, drop to $100. Mainly, just because I don't want her worrying, she will get cash fast, it will invigorate the hobby to get some cheap guns back out there.

I do try to keep a list available of how much most of the guns are worth but I need to update it again. Another option is to tell your loved ones who to go to for appraisal.

[milgunsguy]

The way in which the one gunshop in Boulder, Colorado handles walk-ins is demonstrated by this story:

I was browsing invisibly near the counter one day last year when a man about seventy years of age brought in a Colt 1911A1 .45 that looked original and nearly perfect, handed it to the manager and said something along the lines of: " I'd like to sell this gun, it's worth about $600, I figure."

The manager said I think it's worth a lot more, let's look at the Blue Book, and he whipped out his Fjestad, laid it on the counter and showed the man that his Colt was valued at $3000.

This store manager handles all walk-ins similarly. If he knows the fair market value off the top of his head he gives it; if he doesn't know it he looks it up in the appropriate reference and shares the information openly. The next thing he says, of course, is that he has to pay less than retail value to take in a gun for re-sale, but his offers are fair and his sellers always leave better informed than they were when they walked in. His consignment rate has 20% of final sale price going to the store.

[dave]

My son in-law is in retail, sort of sporting stuff. Like Columbia clothes, hi end fly and fishing euipement, and then all these life like little staues of dogs, deer and other wildilfe. Same thing in art and duck stamps, etc. Primitive sport themed furniture. Gave up his FFL years ago because of low mark-up. Owns his own store. He will not handle anything if not close to 100% mark-up, and some of the art is 200-300%.
I laugh when my wife brings home a pair of slacks or some such and says I got it for 20 dollars and it was marked at 80! This is ussually after the store has almost sold out at 80 bucks, so I'm happy she didn't buy early! Even at 20 they are not really lossing money!

[John L. Lucci]

Let me get this straight:

You condemn a dealer who does not tell folks how much an item is worth in the resale market, but buys rifles at a significant discount so that he can make money in his business. You seem to feel this is wrong, at least morally.

You then find a rifle in his rack, at a price below what you think it is worth, in fact significantly below what you think it is worth. You buy it, without telling him the correct value prior to purchasing. You are proud of this.

How is your morality different than his, in both cases you are buying an item at below market value for your own benefit, is this not so? On what grounds do you condemn him, as I see no difference in your actions? I am not trying to ping you, just understand the subtle difference that makes your action worth note, yet finds his supposed actions to be of dubious moral standing.

I'd say it's poetic justice. The "That Guy" got handed a does of his own medicine..:icon_salut::icon_pirat:

[John Sukey]

Sort of like jewelry, the standard mark up is 200%

[rayg]

The way the one gunshop in Boulder, Colorado handles walk-ins is demonstrated by this story:

I was browsing invisibly near the counter one day last year when a man about seventy years of age brought in a Colt 1911A1 .45 that looked original and nearly perfect, handed it to the manager and said something along the lines of: " I'd like to sell this gun, it's worth about $600, I figure."

The manager said I think it's worth a lot more, let's look at the Blue Book, and he whipped out his Fjestad, laid it on the counter and showed the man that his Colt was valued at $3000.

This store manager handles all walk-ins similarly. If he knows the fair market value off the top of his head he gives it; if he doesn't know it he looks it up in the appropriate reference and shares the information openly. The next thing he says, of course, is that he has to pay less than retail value to take in a gun for re-sale, but his offers are fair and his sellers always leave better informed than they were when they walked in. His consignment rate has 20% of final sale price going to the store.

Now that dealer has integrity and ethical principles.

Personally I don't see anything wrong in buying a gun from a gun shop when they have set a price on it and it's less then it's value. We look for deals at gun shows where the dealer/seller underpriced it. They set the price, that's the fun and challenge of collecting. I've underpriced some items I sold also. Still think of them. Oh well.
Now it's a different story if they want to sell it and ask you want's it worth. I usually kick myself in the a-- as I quote them a fairly realistic value when I know I could tell them a lot less and really get it cheap. However, at times I have unintentionaly underquoted the price a lot less then it was worth because of lack of knowledge of it's worth and I still get pangs of what you might call quilt for doing it when I find out what it is really worth even though it was un-intentional. Ray

[KBCraig]

Sort of like jewelry, the standard mark up is 200%

Like the old story goes about the new employee at the jewelry store: he mis-read a tag and charged someone $9.95 for a bracelet that should have been $995.00.

After he realized what he'd done he went to the owner and explained and offered to make up the difference out of own pocket if he could just keep the job. The owner ranted and raved for a few minutes, then finally paused and said, "Oh well, I still made five bucks on it!"