View Full Version : GCA convention report For 'ihcfan55' and all.
Wayne, pictures should give you the flavor of the convention. I had a great time and I'm sure everyone else did too. E-mail me if you want specific information. I can say there were a lot of HRA's with LMR barrels there :banana100: and no IHC's to speak of. Link to 40 pictures below. Captions are at the bottom of the pictures.
http://www.fototime.com/inv/BB301725EC3DD0B
Thanks for posting that, John. I feel as though I just took the tour myself.
Notes on 2009 Convention – sorting Garands
I just wanted to give any interested folks a few quick notes on some of what we saw last weekend while working on Garands. My brain is still on overload from all we got to see but let's see if I can relay some of what I saw and some of what I learned.
These were returned from the Greek Air Force (I am betting lots of inter-service joke potential there …)
Many, many, many (did I say 'many'?) near mint rifles with nothing wrong but the trigger group and/or stock were switched. I think a third or more of what I saw was truly excellent like this, and it actually became more unusual to see one with the correct trigger group and stock. As to condition, these could be anything from fairly used to nearly unfired (if not completely unfired). But there were many that were right as rain and nearly unmarked - clearly collector grades. If that holds across the board it means that there were over 6000 rifles that were collector grades or a stock/trigger group away from collector grades.
A good number of the late rifles were rebuilt and reparked with several layers on one pallet having the orange wood sets. Nice and new from rebuild stuff that would please many a shooter, I'm sure.
Rebuilds seemed to be of 2 or 3 types; a very few WWII rebuilds with mostly WWII parts and barrels, early 50's rebuilds with early 50's barrels and parts (I did see an SA open box over O), and later Greek rebuilds of quite fine quality.
I saw no WWII rifles with their original barrels or especially stocks and doubt there was even one substantially original WWII rifle in there. Possibly a barreled receiver but that is about it. If so, I didn't hear about it.
I saw very little of the repaired wood with that almost typical Greek repair (the saw cut with cross-grain inserts to reinforce the grain across a crack). Broken wood was rarely seen - I saw 2 and heard of a few more.
Grease was not as abundant as some of the other Greek shipments, but it was present. Some was what sure looked like axle grease, and some was that really waxy, pinkish stuff that stiffens up until you touch it and move it around. Some was just hardened yellow stuff that didn't move at all.
My shirt will probably not clean up but I pulled it out and it kept the shorts from being completely destroyed.
We have a new award to give - most injured - to one fella who managed to have a Garand bite him on the noggin! I can only imagine him telling the doc to hurry up so he could get back in the game. No M1 thumb but 12 stitches at the hairline is the current record holder.
5.7 million serial range rifles were not 'rare' by any stretch, unless you were speaking of 5.7 HRA's. We saw literally dozens of the only 6100 or so 5.7 SA's (actually the final count was over 300!!), many will probably grade out to collector grade and we saw one at our table that was just drippy mint. Oddly, we saw only one 5.7 HRA.
If you like mint and near mint 5.8 SA's you will be in Nirvana, likewise for late HRA's. The stores will have a nice selection for quite a little while I think.
HRA's with LMR's were not rare by any means in this group - I think our area saw 30 (I saw maybe 8 or 10 personally) and heard of similar stories of others each seeing multiples more. Apparently these have been showing up at the North and South store over the last few years (heck. even I found one last year).
HRA's with SA barrels were non-existent. Zero. Nada. None.
200+ rifles 'so new they were still un-oiled' and had the foil around the muzzles was a sight to make just about anyone weak in the knees. It is suspected that these were in their original cardboard boxes but because overseas shipping rules were changed they could not be shipped with them, so they were removed and palletized with the rest. I think Orest was expecting 30 or so of these from what could be seen thru the plastic, but I think our group handled 40 or 50 itself – at one point we uncovered 3 full levels of them on one pallet, and that was after we had already put a good 20 or so of them up in the racks. The first few caused quite a commotion, but stunning or not, after that they were just in the way (unless you wanted to spend several thousand dollars, and a few folks did just that (and I am jealous - grin)). The only thing I can compare them to are the black and white pictures in Scott's red book of the racks of just finished Garands. Wow.
WWII stuff was limited. I think Orest said the serial numbers indicated 2000. All were rebuilds and many were reparked (though quite nicely). WRA's were all quite rough from what I saw and I doubt there was even one that would grade out at a service grade. Even WRA parts were sparse; I saw one WRA barrel that was worthless as a shooter and one WRA modified oprod. There was too much to do and too much to look at to try to look at them any closer than that, at least the way we were humping and we really struggled to finish at the end of the day.
I saw many excellent late SA’s (I want to say 5.8’s) with equally mint grooved rear handguard clips on them. One or two is odd, while 12 to 15 is more of a “hmmmmm – what is going on here” … I wish I could have slowed down and looked closer.
WWII SA's were much more prevalent but still not many were seen.
This shipment seemed to contain a rather narrow band of late war production, to the exclusion of ranges such as 5.7 HRA’s. Early Korean was not seen at all.
I saw one 4.2 - it was a NM. At one point we had 3 NM's at our table - neat, but too pricey for me (I don’t think I heard of any being bought).
I saw NO 4.3's. Nor did I hear of any.
I saw NO 4.66 HRA's, nor did I hear of any.
I also learned that 5.8 SA's with an IHC part or two are not all that abnormal and some folks down CMP way now consider them correct, though no real research on this has been discussed as far as I know (Wayne???). Nor have I heard of any documentation turning up to say SA got the dregs from IHC production. I saw a 5.8 that was untouched and had an IHC safety in it - it is quite a stretch to think that anybody would have taken it all apart and ONLY put in a safety. I heard of another fella finding one with an IHC trigger group (housing?), as well. As so many trigger groups were off, this was probably not the group of rifles on which to do such research or base any such statements (though according to some, other batches have yielded similar such feedback).
After a while I quit saying; "here goes another collector grade in the boxes", as did everyone else. They were not unusual and it ceased to be funny after the 30th time ...
I did not see of any 6.0 mils, though a small number did turn up.
I heard only a very few IHC's were seen (like 3).
I did hear that 6,100,497 was plucked from the boxes - neat catch as that is 2 below the highest number known to exist. We all speculated as to how high that might auction.
I walked around as much as I could but there was a lot to do. On one of my jaunts I found an absolutely stunning HRA/LMR just sitting on top of a pallet - the stock set was so beautiful that even thru the grease you could see that it was a presentation quality - handguards were a perfect match, too. Though new looking and with that much heralded LMR, I think it TE'd at over 2.5 and ME'd at 2. Odd, but even so, if that didn't go home with someone I would be surprised. But if not someone will be blown away. There were many such fine stocks that I saw.
I saw one DAS stamp upside down. Very neat and quite unusual from what I saw.
I learned that there are 2 different late SA large DAS's, though I haven't a clue where they might properly go.
I learned that HRA's are still boring because they are all so darned consistent and perfect. I would have looked for an LMR but I found one at the North store last year. There are many of these HRA/LMR’s coming down the pipe. I saw many HRA's without the rounded barrel ring at the front of the receiver (when looked at from the left side) - I admit I never really looked but that is a feature of HRA's that always stood out to me (and one that kinda just makes them look 'funky') so that was news to me.
The 'so new they are still dry' rifles with the foil are mostly SA but there are HRA's also. They are stunningly gorgeous. I think Orest was thrilled to see several racks of them at the end of the day. I don't know if there will be any more Greek returns so I don't know if there are more to be found, but as to what I think of the value after handling so many, well I don't want to get folks into trouble with their significant other, but ... boy they are nice. If you want nicer you are fooling yourself as there just isn't.
I heard of one fella turning up a rebuild with a late '40 barrel that was still excellent.
I saw 2 WWII cartouches, barely - GAW and EMcF.
I saw 3 lockbars.
I saw 3 WRA's though I only picked up one myself (didn't buy it, just picked it up ...). One was a really nice looking 146,xxx with an SA WWII barrel. That too went in the box.
I handled a 5.8 NM that was excellent but I think it may have only had a NM barrel. I brought it up and had it graded just for grins and let them put it in the racks reserved for special rifles.
The story of the day was excellence and in quantity - even those at the CMP said they had not seen this level of quality for some time.
Thanks to all those involved for this unique experience - it was a most memorable time for everyone as far as I could tell.
the New rifles???
Yes you could buy one, they were called collector grade plus and the price was $3000.00 or $3500.00 each. I understand someone purchased 20 of them.
Great pictures but you missed the best shots as I only appear in only two.
Thanks for great report. I was going to head down to the North Store this week but it seems kind of pointless now.
bearbadge
10-15-2009, 05:48
Yes you could buy one, they were called collector grade plus and the price was $3000.00 or $3500.00 each. I understand someone purchased 20 of them.
I would love to believe that but the limit is 12 per year. This means there is no way to purchase 20 rifles. If the limits were lifted for the GCA members attending, that would be a different story.
I would love to believe that but the limit is 12 per year. This means there is no way to purchase 20 rifles. If the limits were lifted for the GCA members attending, that would be a different story.
You answered your own question.
bearbadge
10-15-2009, 10:43
You answered your own question.
Well I could have answered my own question in two different ways. I could have answered it in the affirmative by saying you can only purchase 12 rifles. I could have also answered it in the affirmative by saying the limits were lifted for the GCA volunteers. Which one of those scenarios are you saying is true?
I've thought about this whole GCA thing quite a bit. If some guys want to work their tail off helping out a good cause, the least that could be done for them is to be moved to the front of the line and given the best crack at the best rifles. Nothing wrong with them being able to purchase as many as they like either. You just can't do enough to reward the great members of the GCA.
Well I could have answered my own question in two different ways. I could have answered it in the affirmative by saying you can only purchase 12 rifles. I could have also answered it in the affirmative by saying the limits were lifted for the GCA volunteers. Which one of those scenarios are you saying is true?
I've thought about this whole GCA thing quite a bit. If some guys want to work their tail off helping out a good cause, the least that could be done for them is to be moved to the front of the line and given the best crack at the best rifles. Nothing wrong with them being able to purchase as many as they like either. You just can't do enough to reward the great members of the GCA.
Purchases not limited. Some only purchased 1 rifle, some purchased 2-4 rifles, some purchased over 12 rifles. From what I know purchases averaged about 4-5 rifles per person not including the unissued collector grade plus.
What?? No limits is just wrong .I had no problem with the GCA members getting first crack at the rifles but they should have to follow the same guidlines as everyone else!!
Vos Parate
10-15-2009, 03:22
Well I could have answered my own question in two different ways. I could have answered it in the affirmative by saying you can only purchase 12 rifles. I could have also answered it in the affirmative by saying the limits were lifted for the GCA volunteers. Which one of those scenarios are you saying is true?
I've thought about this whole GCA thing quite a bit. If some guys want to work their tail off helping out a good cause, the least that could be done for them is to be moved to the front of the line and given the best crack at the best rifles. Nothing wrong with them being able to purchase as many as they like either. You just can't do enough to reward the great members of the GCA.
I look on the bright side. The CMP has 150,000 M1s on hand. The GCA sorting party will speed up the process up everyone. If 1500 rifles were purchased, that represents 1% of the total. That leaves 99% for the rest of us. :1948:
i look on the bright side. The cmp has 150,000 m1s on hand. The gca sorting party will speed up the process up everyone. If 1500 rifles were purchased, that represents 1% of the total. That leaves 99% for the rest of us. :1948:
+1
:1948::1948::1948::1948::1948:
I look on the bright side. The CMP has 150,000 M1s on hand. The GCA sorting party will speed up the process up everyone. If 1500 rifles were purchased, that represents 1% of the total. That leaves 99% for the rest of us. :1948:
But why the double standards?
But why the double standards?
Orlando,
This has been covered many times and I mean this in the best of terms, join the GCA, read the magazines, keep abreast of upcoming events and you can participate also. I have never seen anyone get into a NASCAR race without a ticket, unless they jump the fence of course.
Your type of question has been posted on the CMP in several places. I think one of Orest Michaels answers summed it up best:
"c'mon - give me a break. Are you suggesting we should not exploit hundreds of Garand enthusiasts when they gather? If you were fishing - would you not prefer to fish where the fish are?"
You need to contact Orest Michaels and ask him the question if you have a complaint, not this board.
Best regards and I hope to see you at the next event.
PS: I left about 100 rifles in my storage box that some people will be absolutely delighted to own. :banana100: I only bought two.
I belong to the GCA and have no problem with them being able to purchase rifles after volunteering a days work. What I have a problem with is double standards that CMP seems to be coming up with more and more.
Vos Parate
10-16-2009, 03:39
I belong to the GCA and have no problem with them being able to purchase rifles after volunteering a days work. What I have a problem with is double standards that CMP seems to be coming up with more and more.
As I mentioned, the CMP has 150,000 M1s on hand. I can guarantee that no one will be deprived of owning the M1 of their dreams.
I may be thick, but I fail to see the problem. :eusa_wall:
The problem is a select group gets to buy any amount of rifles or ammo and the rest of us have to go buy limits. Problem is double standards, What gives?
Vos Parate
10-16-2009, 06:20
The problem is a select group gets to buy any amount of rifles or ammo and the rest of us have to go buy limits. Problem is double standards, What gives?
I'm guessing that you maxed out your purchases this year.
I'm guessing that you maxed out your purchases this year.
You guess wrong. Ammo yes, rifles not even close
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1849
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1849
And? This is a civil discussion
bearbadge
10-17-2009, 08:04
More is coming out. This guy says that he's sure parts swapping was going on. I don't know what his proof is but he did say it. He edited his original post but the fellow below, jhacker, quoted him before he could edit.
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=78080
So now we have the GCA members with the following benefits,
1. Being moved to the head of the line to pick the very best of rifles
2. The ability to buy ammo that is supposed to be sold out
3. No purchase limits on rifles
4. At least one person there was sure parts swapping was going on
If someone says there was no limit on ammunition, that would just take the cake. So, was there a limit on ammunition guys?
Vos Parate
10-17-2009, 09:33
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/vos_parate/Forum%20Pictures/AwJeez.jpg
So now we have the GCA members with the following benefits,
1. Being moved to the head of the line to pick the very best of rifles
2. The ability to buy ammo that is supposed to be sold out
3. No purchase limits on rifles
4. At least one person there was sure parts swapping was going on
If someone says there was no limit on ammunition, that would just take the cake. So, was there a limit on ammunition guys?
So what? I mean really, so what? The CMP hosted a convention and at that convention they allowed the convention goers certain perks, like working all day and then buying rifles and ammunition at full price. Big deal. I can't think of a convention I've been to where the host, promoter, or vendors DIDN"T provide perks to the convention goers, whether it be the ability to buy stuff that non-attendees couldn't, or buying stuff that non-attendees could but at a big discount not available to non-attendees, or even giving convention goers stuff for--gasp--free!
As for the ammunition, if CMP reserved some HXP for convention goers, so what? According to Orest, everyone who had an ammo order in by the announced cutoff date is going to get their ammo. People have been buying ammo in the stores ever since the cutoff was announced, but I haven't heard a big stink about that. It's CMP's ammo. They bought and paid for it, and as long as they meet their obligation to fill open orders, if they want to offer some for sale--with or without limits--as a perk to convention goers, that's their business.
Life isn't fair. Golf isn't fair. A progressive income tax isn't fair. The second Muhammed Ali-Sonny Liston fight wasn't fair. And business damn sure isn't fair. Why do new cable customers get to pay half price for six months and longtime loyal customers have to pay the full price? Because that's what the cable company believes it must do to make the most money. And the retail side of CMP will do what they believe is best for their bottom line so that they can fund their marksmanship programs and cover operating expenses. So far they've done a pretty good job and I for one am not going to second guess them when it comes to hosting conventions and giving perks to convention goers. (Disclaimer: No, I didn't attend the convention.)
bearbadge
10-17-2009, 11:30
So what? I suppose you're right. If the CMP chooses to give every GCA member gift certificates, for 50 cent rifles, every year for 5 years so what? There is no amount of generosity that a gca volunteer does not deserve. All other club members get what's left over and that's that. I like it.
interesting that another 6.1 was found, there could be more around - years ago I took apart 6,100,256 and thought that was a high number.
fossil24
10-18-2009, 09:07
More is coming out. This guy says that he's sure parts swapping was going on. I don't know what his proof is but he did say it. He edited his original post but the fellow below, jhacker, quoted him before he could edit.
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=78080
So now we have the GCA members with the following benefits,
1. Being moved to the head of the line to pick the very best of rifles
2. The ability to buy ammo that is supposed to be sold out
3. No purchase limits on rifles
4. At least one person there was sure parts swapping was going on
If someone says there was no limit on ammunition, that would just take the cake. So, was there a limit on ammunition guys?
There were two threads over there and now they are gone. The were apparently deleted at about 11:15 this morning. (Wink, wink)
I found the attitude among GCA members to be very instructive. I will not be joining the GCA.
http://img.timeinc.net/time/2007/la_riots/king_rodney.jpg
Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?
by Douglas Noll
Many will recall the plaintive call of Rodney King, the man whose vicious beating by members of the Los Angeles police department was caught on video. Mr. King cried out, “Why can’t we all just get along?” The reason we cannot always get along seems to be based, in part, on our brains.
Recent advances in the neurosciences have established an irrefutable fact: Human beings are emotional, not rational. Nevertheless, on the strength of Descartes’ rationalist philosophy, the Enlightenment opened the doors to modern empiricism and led humanity into the Scientific Revolution. No one doubted the power of rational thinking to solve problems and unravel the mysteries of the observable universe. From these observations came the belief that humans were distinguished from all other creatures because of their rationality. To be irrational was to be something less than human.
This belief deeply influenced English and American law, foreign policy, and economic theory. Legal standards were set by comparison to a prototypical rational person. Foreign policy was based on the assumption that rational beings could sit together and work through international disputes and conflicts. Economists built an entire field of study on the assumption that consumers acted “rationally” in maximizing their utility. People engaged in peacemaking, from the interpersonal to the international level, assumed that despite the emotions of conflict, people fundamentally were rational.
The truth is that we are 98 percent emotional and about two percent rational. Thus, the assumptions underlying many disciplines and practices, especially peacemaking, need significant revisions. Much remains unknown, but the implications of the research so far demonstrate that we must be far more aware of neuropsychological factors of human conflict. These factors explain much about conflict behaviors. They also provide insights about new interventions in serious and intractable conflicts.
To understand how our brain deals with conflict, consider a simple emotional model. In this model, conflict starts with some problem. The problem is serious enough to cause anxiety, reflected in a feeling of insecurity. When anxiety or insecurity is first experienced, we have a choice between reactivity and reflection. If we do not make a choice, our default mode is to be reactive.
By being reactive, we might reject the problem, give up, or feel inadequate to deal with the problem. If the problem is persistent, we might struggle or exit. As the conflict develops, we perceive it as a threat, and we may blame, attack or withdraw. These behaviors constitute our fear reaction system. I like to call it our self-protective system. The brain systems associated with fear reaction are very, very old, dating back to the earliest vertebrae animals. Although highly adaptive in the uncertain and dangerous environment of 20,000 years ago, the system is largely maladaptive in our modern, complex culture.
If the choice for reflection is made, we have learned to reflect, relate, and relax. The insecurity arising from a conflict situation is recognized as pointing to a pathway of growth towards greater peace and self-realization. We are led by our curiosity to discover something new, find what is lost, or complete unfinished business. Success leads us to wholeness, authenticity, power and wisdom.
The path, however, is not easy. From anxiety and insecurity, we experience inadequacy (we don’t know what to do) and a drop in self-esteem (we don’t feel good about self). We ride on a broad emotional river and often experience fear of death, a drowning sensation, being shaky, or cold. Along this journey, our fear reaction system could pull us off the path of peace.
At the end of this emotional drop, we end in a calm pool that represents the essential peace within us. In this state, we hold an unshakable foundation of belief in ourselves. We are authentic; we are present in the moment. We exhibit a full spectrum of self as robust, rainbow colored, and multi-faceted. From this place, we can be compassionate, tolerant, exhibit loving-kindness, and embrace peace. This is what I have observed many people experiencing as they engage in conflict resolution and achieve peace.
These behaviors come from our brains’ altruistic, cooperative social attachment systems. The social attachment system in the brain controls pair bonding, such as the mother-infant dyad, pair bonding, and the formation of families, extended families, and communities. It is the system that allowed us to become highly social and create complex, interdependent societies. However, our self-protective system will override our altruistic system unless we choose otherwise. Because it is not the default choice, mobilizing the social attachment systems in conflict situations is challenging. The last thing a person wants is to feel altruistic towards her conflict cohort. As has been said to me many times, “I don’t want to sit around a campfire and sing Kumbayah!” Yet lasting resolution of difficult conflicts can only occur when our brains altruistic systems are fully operational. Thus, one challenge for peacemaking is to recognize when and why a person’s fear response system is dominating them, then craft an intervention that will allow the altruistic brain systems to take over.
http://www.mediate.com/articles/noll9.cfm#
Biography
Douglas E. Noll, Esq. is a full time peacemaker and mediator specializing in difficult and intractable conflicts. In addition to being a lawyer, Mr. Noll holds a Masters Degree in Peacemaking and Conflict Studies. He has mediated and arbitrated over 1,200 cases, including a large number of construction, construction defect, and real estate matters involving tens of millions of dollars. He is a nationally recognized author, speaker, and lecturer onadvanced peacemaking and mediation theory and practice. Mr. Noll is a Fellow of the International Academy of Mediators, a Fellow of the American College of Civil Trial Mediators, and on numerous national arbitration panels.
fossil24
10-18-2009, 01:11
Thus, one challenge for peacemaking is to recognize when and why a person’s fear response system is dominating them, then craft an intervention that will allow the altruistic brain systems to take over.
So we should make peace with dishonesty? Is that right? It's "altruistic" to craft an intervention with dishonesty?
That's a far cry from the words of Edmund Burke and the idea that evil should not prosper. The laughable thing about that article is that it turns rationality on it's head in the tradition of Karl Marx and the Young Hegelians.
That is what they seem to think over on the CMP forums too, though. Mr. Michaels told me that my character was bad because I raised questions about the character of people wanting to give a pass to dishonesty so long as they could get a good rifle out of it.
mdoerner
10-18-2009, 04:33
SO WHAT!!!
I really could care less about this thread.
1.) The CMP has introduced me to the Garand and high-power target shooting. I think this is a good thing.
2.) I have purchesed several Garands thru the CMP, and if I could, I would buy more. No they are not presentation-grade, museum quality pieces, but they server their purpose, target shooting.
3.) So what if someone walked out with a WRA bolt, or a forged op-rod guide they'll get what they deserve in the end. The CMP is out there to advance the concept of MARKSMANSHIP, not advance the Garand collecting community. If the GCA guys/gals plowed thru thousands of rifles to help allieviate the huge backlog of rifle orders out there, kudos to them. If the reward for their hard work is 1st dibs on merchandise, so be it.
4.) My 1st CMP gun was a beater Garand from the CMP when people were screaming "ONE RIFLE PER LIFETIME!!!!" and took my lumps then. If I could have hand picked one to avoid the beater Garand, I would have (and so would you!) Now I have 3 of 4 Garands I have purchased thru CMP (yes, the beater is gone). The last one is a Winchester woodless that will become a .308 surplus shooter. If I had to buy the parts on the open market, I would have paid $200-300 more than thru the CMP. And once .308 surplus becomes more available than M2 ball surplus, I'll shoot this gun. Point is, I can enjoy several flavors of Garand because of the CMP. Otherwise, I'd probibly be shooting Mausers, Mosin-Nagants, and .303 Brits. All fine guns, but because of the CMP, I get to shoot the cream-of-the-crop.
5.) I could care less about "collectors" and "restorations" as they will never be shot religiously because of their supposed "value". Collectors can enjoy their paper weights, I will enjoy punching paper ACCURATELY with mine (or furry critters should the opportunity arise.)
6.) CMP is about MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING, not Garand collecting. A SA-19 bolt fires just as well as an SA-2 or WRA bolt. If someone got dibs an a collector rifle at the show, so be it, they paid full price. If parts swapping went on, please provide some PROOF not here-say about what went on.
Mike Doerner
Vos Parate
10-18-2009, 04:45
So we should make peace with dishonesty? Is that right? It's "altruistic" to craft an intervention with dishonesty?
That's a far cry from the words of Edmund Burke and the idea that evil should not prosper. The laughable thing about that article is that it turns rationality on it's head in the tradition of Karl Marx and the Young Hegelians.
That is what they seem to think over on the CMP forums too, though. Mr. Michaels told me that my character was bad because I raised questions about the character of people wanting to give a pass to dishonesty so long as they could get a good rifle out of it.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/vos_parate/Forum%20Pictures/AwJeez.jpg
fossil24
10-18-2009, 08:22
SO WHAT!!!
8.) CMP is about MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING, not Garand collecting.
That is where it get interesting, because the GCA is about collecting. What does their "fraud policy" say?
There is a difference between complaining about something that is in a punchbowl, and putting something in it. I suppose it is too much to expect a fine shooting community to know the difference.
Fogtripper
10-19-2009, 02:13
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/vos_parate/Forum%20Pictures/AwJeez.jpg
Pretty much.
Fossil24 trolled and was banned on the CMP forum, and here he is now trolling this one.
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 04:12
That is where it get interesting, because the GCA is about collecting. What does their "fraud policy" say?
There is a difference between complaining about something that is in a punchbowl, and putting something in it. I suppose it is too much to expect a fine shooting community to know the difference.
No difference. You seem to VALUE the collectors stuff for YOURSELF apparently. If it bugs you that much, why didn't you go? I don't wanna hear a B.S. story about how you wanted to go, but you couldn't. Not after all the b*tchin' you've done here.
If a GCA member VALUES one inspected rifle (or even all, up to the 12 gun limit) and has the cash for it, then that's their prerogative. When I go to the North Store, I gage every barrel of every gun I may consider purchasing. The exception was this last trip where I knew I was pulling the barrel, so the best finished Winchester won. So are you going to lump me into the "punchbowl" crowd because I want to get the most value for my dollar? I'm fairly certain the GCA collectors didn't gain 200 lbs as they walked out the door, so your point about parts swapping is meaningless.
If they got 1st dibs on stuff out of the box so people can get their back-ordered merchandise sooner, and the CMP didn't pay them, and CMP made money off them, THEN WHAT'S THE FRIGGIN' PROBLEM??!????!
Doerner
The problem is they had no limits
Vos Parate
10-19-2009, 04:26
The problem is they had no limits
Just how many rifles did you miss out on?
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 04:35
The problem is they had no limits
So are ALL the Garands gone? Nooooo.......there's a limit to what people can achieve monetarily even in a recession.
Besides, who wants to tie up $1 million in Garands (err....I mean paperweights for collectors)? Even if they inspected 1 rifle a minute, just how many Garands in primo shape do you think walked out the door? Even if someone bought 90 rifles, did that not help the CMP's coffers? How many GCA "rejects" are now on their way to owners that are looking for a good shooter?
Mike D
Just how many rifles did you miss out on?
Not the point, double standards is
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 05:07
Not the point, double standards is
OK, a little incentive for working without pay, for unknown condition rifles, to travel on your own nickel, then yes, I see that as an enticement and a good way to make money for the CMP.
Let's assume the GCA guys aren't interested in the rack grade rifles, only the pristine stuff. That's $995 * 12 = $11,940. If they bought 90 rifles, that's $89,550, without tax. Even if these guys got a 2nd + 3rd mortgages to obtain every rifle they ever dreamed of for this once-in-a-lifetime (until next time) opportunity, SO WHAT!!!!! The CMP is not about Garand collecting. If they can use the GCA as the means to an end (more rifles out of the backlog) then GREAT!
Before you even infer it, and might be tempted to say every rifle that every GCA member made every rifle they purchased the $445 rack grade screwing the rest of us, the rules clearly stated what could be bought, and what couldn't be purchased. Do you seriously think they went down there solely to grab the "cherry" rifles from the rest of us? That Orest Michaels sole purpose in life is to serve the GCA automatons their required "sacrifice" of primo, top-notch merchandise or else suffer the wrath of disgruntled seasoned citizens?
Besides, where else are you going to get your Garands from bub? Korea???? Good luck trying to dicker on price with a fly-by-night importer for the $445 rack grade that has somehow become Gen. Geroge S. Patton's personal M1 Garand that he carried during the Battle of the Bulge, and bequeathed to Gen Douglas MacArthur prior to Patton's death, and inadvertently sent to Korea where this particular rifle killed 5,000 North Koreans with a single clip of ammo during the retreat from the Chosin Reservoir, for the discounted price of $3500.
You guys argue like you shoot, a bit wide and over your own heads.
Mike D
Well Bub, I'm not blaming the 250 guys that went to volunteer. What leaves a real bad taste in my mouth is how CMP preaches its rules but yet has double standards for the chosen few. My opinion and It wont be changed
Ping Sr.
10-19-2009, 05:23
Besides, where else are you going to get your Garands from bub? Korea???? Good luck trying to dicker on price with a fly-by-night importer for the $445 rack grade that has somehow become Gen. Geroge S. Patton's personal M1 Garand that he carried during the Battle of the Bulge, and bequeathed to Gen Douglas MacArthur prior to Patton's death, and inadvertently sent to Korea where this particular rifle killed 5,000 North Koreans with a single clip of ammo during the retreat from the Chosin Reservoir, for the discounted price of $3500.
Mike D
Actually, I already own that one. Its for sale.:icon_lol:
Just think, if the M1 Collectors Club would have been formed a few months back and they would have gotten to have a convention like the past one, then all the GCA members would have been Peed Off and would be throwing a tantrum now. As for the guy who bought 20 rifles, he may have had a friend or buddy with him and purchased that many together.
BlitzKrieg
10-19-2009, 05:25
I cannot believe the excuses made to justify the preferential treatment of GCA members over the rank and file of CMP members. No matter how you paint this situation, the GCA guys got to cherry pick and they were catered to by Orest.
So the lesson my friends is this: If you want to be a real CMP member: join the
GCA and get the real CMP deals.
The lesson is not fair is fair and CMP is all about marksmanship: CMP is about selling weapons to fund Marksmanship programs and gives first pick of Garands to the GCA.
So join the GCA : can't you read Orests lips????
pappa_john
10-19-2009, 05:27
Shucks...
At the risk of being labeled a troll, just for expressing a minority opinion...
Orlando brings up some very good points... and I know his history on other forums, and he's not one to piss and moan about things.
I don't think most folks object to helping the CMP. Far from it. I've done it myself. with no pay or benefits, and no sweet deals. It was done that way "back in the day"...
But folks do object to selectively changing the rules for a select group and then the appearance of a cover-up. And double standards...
I figured the CMP would have learned from the previous cherry picking session... but apparently not. This session went far beyond the first...
The CMP, chartered by the US Congress... that Congressional charter can be withdrawn at the drop of a hat.
And then we all lose...
And all those thousands of pristine rifles will be destroyed...
All Garand lovers should be sensitive to that possibility, and the CMP and clubs should attempt to avoid any appearance of favoritism and questionable activities.
Hopefully the formation of the M1 Collector's Club will prove to be a refreshing alternative to the GCA.
Pop
The GCA asked CMP to have a convention at Anniston. Now the M1 Collectors Club is in line to have one next year, but with all this controversy and bickering it just might not materialize.
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 06:39
Shucks...
[text deleted]
But folks do object to selectively changing the rules for a select group and then the appearance of a cover-up. And double standards...
I figured the CMP would have learned from the previous cherry picking session... but apparently not. This session went far beyond the first...
The CMP, chartered by the US Congress... that Congressional charter can be withdrawn at the drop of a hat.
And then we all lose...[Text Deleted]
Not quite....by then we can all buy Garands from the GCA......:eek: IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!
Sorry guys....couldn't resist....:D
Mike D
Vos Parate
10-19-2009, 06:54
Not the point, double standards is
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/vos_parate/Forum%20Pictures/Trollspray.jpg
bearbadge
10-19-2009, 07:08
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/vos_parate/Forum%20Pictures/Trollspray.jpg
I am hoping you're joking Vos Parate. To dismiss the honest opinion of another person is blatantly impolite. Should I post photo's of Pinocchio's nose growing when I quote someone who disagrees with my opinion?
There are two very different sides to this argument. One side believes that the rules of the CMP are rightfully off if they host a convention. The other side believes that all CMP members should be treated equally. It's really quite simple where these two sides stand.
Me, I believe that no sacrifice is too great to please the GCA members among us. Shower them (the GCA) with rifles, ammunition, and the best inventory that the CMP can muster. Do it all and show them (the GCA) there importance as it relates to the mere mortals among us.
Now, if I knew how to post a picture, I'd put a photo up of Caesar being hailed by his minions.
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 07:09
I cannot believe the excuses made to justify the preferential treatment of GCA members over the rank and file of CMP members. No matter how you paint this situation, the GCA guys got to cherry pick and they were catered to by Orest.
So the lesson my friends is this: If you want to be a real CMP member: join the
GCA and get the real CMP deals.
The lesson is not fair is fair and CMP is all about marksmanship: CMP is about selling weapons to fund Marksmanship programs and gives first pick of Garands to the GCA.
So join the GCA : can't you read Orests lips????
And since when is there a membership fee to be part of CMP? Last time I checked, I didn't get a CMP membership card. I had to PARTICIPATE in a qualifying marksmanship event. I paid to a club that allowed non-members to shoot. I've since become an associate member of said club. There's no such thing as CMP members, just Garand/Carbine customers and match participants.
Also, why wouldn't the CMP want to preserve exemplary examples of historic Garands? Yes, they're going to private collections, but that would happen even if you hit the "jackpot" S/N 82 from SA, you'd hock it on Gunbroker in one hot minute. You'd never shoot it for it's intended purpose, marksmanship training. So let's call a spade a spade. You're PO'ed cuz the volunteers got to the head of the line in order to clear out the order backlog. If one guy walked out with 20 rifles @ $445 then that's $8,900 the CMP has in their piggy bank and that he's tied up in guns (oh, I'm sorry, it's probably his "investment" or "retirement".) Whatever, his money, his decision under the rules at the event. And, yes, you'll probably see him down the aisle at the gun show with the dude that has Patton's MacArthur's Frozen Chosin Garand. You'd better get over it before you end up in the hospital with Garanditis.;)
However, if you've ordered 12 rifles this year and THEN found out you could go to the GCA event, you couldn't walk out with anything. My guess is that was the rule's intent. Now instead of calling the sales "unlimited" call it "Maximum 20 rifles can be purchased at the event" then that would probably been better worded. However, it's nice to hear only ONE guy walked out with 20 rifles (yes, there will be SOME left over). I would have thought many more people would have walked out with MORE merchandise, IMHO. My guess is the "unlimited" rule was to see just how many rifles one guy would walk out the door with. I think in the future, that will be the maximum limit for these kind of events, but I'm not Orest.
Maybe with all the HXP sales and GCA sales on top of the huge order backlog, Orest Michaels has ideas on what the CMP will become once the Garands and Carbines and M2 HXP are finally GONE. It's a much easier decision to make when you're sitting on a pile of cash. Esp. if congress ever yanks their mandate out from under them..........
Mike Doerner
bearbadge
10-19-2009, 07:14
And since when is there a membership fee to be part of CMP? Last time I checked, I didn't get a CMP membership card. I had to PARTICIPATE in a qualifying marksmanship event. I paid to a club that allowed non-members to shoot. I've since become an associate member of said club. There's no such thing as CMP members, just Garand/Carbine customers and match participants.
Also, why wouldn't the CMP want to preserve exemplary examples of historic Garands? Yes, they're going to private collections, but that would happen even if you hit the "jackpot" S/N 82 from SA, you'd hock it on Gunbroker in one hot minute. You'd never shoot it for it's intended purpose, marksmanship training. So let's call a spade a spade. You're PO'ed cuz the volunteers got to the head of the line in order to clear out the order backlog. If one guy walked out with 20 rifles @ $445 then that's $8,900 the CMP has in their piggy bank and that he's tied up in guns (oh, I'm sorry, it's probably his "investment" or "retirement".) Whatever, his money, his decision under the rules at the event. And, yes, you'll probably see him down the aisle at the gun show with the dude that has Patton's MacArthur's Frozen Chosin Garand. You'd better get over it before you end up in the hospital with Garanditis.;)
However, if you've ordered 12 rifles this year and THEN found out you could go to the GCA event, you couldn't walk out with anything. My guess is that was the rule's intent. Now instead of calling the sales "unlimited" call it "Maximum 20 rifles can be purchased at the event" then that would probably been better worded. However, it's nice to hear only ONE guy walked out with 20 rifles (yes, there will be SOME left over). I would have thought many more people would have walked out with MORE merchandise, IMHO. My guess is the "unlimited" rule was to see just how many rifles one guy would walk out the door with. I think in the future, that will be the maximum limit for these kind of events, but I'm not Orest.
Maybe with all the HXP sales and GCA sales on top of the huge order backlog, Orest Michaels has ideas on what the CMP will become once the Garands and Carbines and M2 HXP are finally GONE. It's a much easier decision to make when you're sitting on a pile of cash. Esp. if congress ever yanks their mandate out from under them..........
Mike Doerner
This really isn't the point. The point is that GCA members were allowed to purchase more than their 12 per year limit. I'm sure that many people would love to purchase more than 12 per year. Can I get Orest to allow my club a special stay so that we all can purchase as many rifles as we want? He11 no we can't. How many other clubs have ever had their members be able to purchase unlimited numbers of rifles? I know of 0
fossil24
10-19-2009, 07:19
I'm fairly certain the GCA collectors didn't gain 200 lbs as they walked out the door, so your point about parts swapping is meaningless.
If they got 1st dibs on stuff out of the box so people can get their back-ordered merchandise sooner, and the CMP didn't pay them, and CMP made money off them, THEN WHAT'S THE FRIGGIN' PROBLEM??!????!
Doerner
What does the GCA fraud policy say about part swapping? What is the CMP policy on part swapping the the stores?
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 07:22
What does the GCA fraud policy say about part swapping? What is the CMP policy on part swapping the the stores?
Prove that part swapping went on....right here. Who did it. Names.
Doerner
PS And if you can't prove it, don't say it......
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 07:23
What does the GCA fraud policy say about part swapping? What is the CMP policy on part swapping the the stores?
Prove it.
Doerner
mdoerner
10-19-2009, 07:43
This really isn't the point. The point is that GCA members were allowed to purchase more than their 12 per year limit. I'm sure that many people would love to purchase more than 12 per year. Can I get Orest to allow my club a special stay so that we all can purchase as many rifles as we want? He11 no we can't. How many other clubs have ever had their members be able to purchase unlimited numbers of rifles? I know of 0
It was an enticement to get the work done, very simple. What other club membership can get you to buy a Garand @ CMP? I'm an Associate Member of a club the runs CMP matches, but you still gotta be a member of a CMP recognized association. You can take the easy path, and become a GCA member, and get a magazine subscription with it. I was an Ohio Gun Rifle and Pistol Assn member once (didn't do a thing for me), now I'm a GCA member and get their magazines. I didn't go to the thing in Alabama, but if things were different in my life and had more free time, I think I would have tried to as well, just to see what it's like. The event was limited to 250 people. Even if each one walked out with 10 rifles @$445 a crack that's $1,112,500 CMP made on that event alone. Of course, that's 2,500 rifles out the door, and I'd hope they'd cleared many more than that so they can be processed for those "rank and file CMP members" the other guy was lamenting about.
PS If it helps your blood pressure get to the all important 300 over 150 mark, then yes, I too was at the GCA event, and I'm slathering myself with all the pristine WIN-13 Garand's Orest Michaels brought to me personally for $445 each, in my Golden Goose bathtub with built in HXP and Hornady Match ammunition dispensers.......helping your blood pressure any?
Mike Doerner
PPS I need some sleep, see you guys tomorrow.......I'm sure this thread will still be going strong.
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