Any one see that Trapdoor on Pawn Stars tonight?

[inland44]

Watching Pawn Stars tonight a guy brought in a Burnside Carbine and a "experimental" Trapdoor. Anyone have any ideas??? it was about carbine length but the wood extended to about a foot from the muzzle. The latch on the trapdoor looked a little fat and stubby compared to the typical trapdoor. My first thought was a line throwing gun but I didnt get a good enough look at it. Just courious.


Thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

Didn't see that episode yet, but, AFAIK, there are no TDs - "experimental" or otherwise - that have that much barrel (12" +/-) exposed. You have your carbines, but then everything else has the wood out to about 3" from muzzle, even when the end of the stock is uncapped, as in the case of the M1886 24" barrel "XC" carbine. That show repeats quite a bit, so I'm sure I'll see it sooner or later. FWIW, I think I like the firearms "expert" about the least of all the guys Rick brings in.

[John Sukey]

Well I wouldn't say that. there are the trapdoor "foragers" ie; ones done up by the arsenal as shotguns. However they are quite rare.

And lets not forget the ones issued to the Indians for hunting.

[inland44]

Yes Im sure it will be on again, lets see if I can recall a bit more about it. It looked like it had Buffington sights not the earlier 1879 humped sight. They showed a pretty good shot of the front sight and it looked original or at lest a very good replacement job. I dont think the cleaning rod is orginal and to ME looked like an Enfield Ram rod. It was not the smoothly tapered type but the big cylinder type with the 3 deep grooves. The "expert" also pointed out a small hairline seam where a portion of the forestock was replaced, and again also done VERY well. If I recall there were 2 barrel bands and at first glance lit looked like an old Musketoon.

[Dick Hosmer]

Actually, I have to take back what I said - PS in my area (northern CA) last night had the handwriting expert on - HE makes the weapons guru seem like a nice guy!

To me, the Forager, which certainly is scarce, but still is in what I would call - generically speaking - "carbine configuration", though the stock and (no) band is of a different shape. I interpreted I44 to mean something with a stock neither short NOR full. Obviously, an Indian gun could be anything, but that doesn't make it an "experimental" (a much over-used term for things which don't fit the mould) either.

No TD had a rod such as you describe, but, I am sure that we copied the last smooth TD rod from the Brits. Timing and shape are too close to be coincidence. Martini rods are sometimes used in TDs but the length from groove to tip is not right.

A very well-known Eastern dealer has been trying to sell a fake of a VERY VERY rare TD with such a rod, and brand new stock actually made to suit the shorter rod, for years now. As part of the scam, the barrel has either been set back further into the receiver, or the rear sight has been relocated - cannot tell from pictures provided. He's calling it a Cadet, but it was CLEARLY made up by someone as a phony M1882 28"B Short Rifle. Why the idiot who made it used a Martini rod is beyond understanding.

[deadin]

If the "trapdoor" under question is the one that was with the Burnside Carbine, it is one of the many European made guns based on the same system as ours.
At first view I thought it was an Albini-Braedlin but the thumbpiece wasn't quite right. Definitely not a Springfield.

[Doug Rammel]

I didn't see that episode but the "expert" is a joke. And like the antique road show his estimates on value are ridiculous. People watching those shows then think their old rifle that great grandpa used at the little big horn is worth thousands.

[musketshooter]

I was at the store about 3 weeks ago and they had a common Model 1884 TD rifle in very good condition. The price tag had 3K on it. A common 43 Spanish RRB was tagged at 2K. They obviously were not very interested in selling anything. Keep in mind that the TV show is scripted and it is not a coincidence that stuff shows up there when they are filming.

[Dick Hosmer]

One of my life fantasies is to walk into a place like that WITH a great rarity, which (throwing modesty to the winds here) I COULD do, and see just what I am told about it. :-)

The answer about the rifle being foreign makes complete sense - there are a number of similar designs out there.

[John Sukey]

Doug, my Favourite was the British Antiques Road show. A woman brought in a Colt Walker that had been ISSUED to an ancestor with the photos and provenance. The finish had turned brown but it was complete and in working order.
The "appraiser" said. "This is a Colt Walker revolver worth 2000 pounds, but you should have the grips changed becaust they are a bit "tatty':eek:
He would have been better at appraising chamber pots:rolleyes:

[Guamsst]

Doug, my Favourite was the British Antiques Road show. A woman brought in a Colt Walker that had been ISSUED to an ancestor with the photos and provenance. The finish had turned brown but it was complete and in working order.
The "appraiser" said. "This is a Colt Walker revolver worth 2000 pounds, but you should have the grips changed becaust they are a bit "tatty':eek:
He would have been better at appraising chamber pots:rolleyes:

LOL, keep the petina but replace some parts. The Brits aren't much on firearms in the first place. Her best bet would be just to give it a good wipe down. It's amazing what a gentle cleaning and oiling can do for a gun that already seemed nice.

[mhb]

of any variation, nor did the 'expert' say it was. It did have a 'trapdoor' type breech system (as do other early breechloaders (Albini-Braendlin, Berdan I, etc.).
What I think it was (having discussed it the first time it appeared on the program) was a Tergessen, but I'm not willing to bet on it, since there wasn't enough detail visible in the video. It did look like it was in very fine condition, and likely a worthy collector's piece. It appeared to have been in original condition, not shortened, and was probably a carbine.
I can't advise the Pawnstars program as a source of authoritative firearms information, 'cause they ain't.
mhb - Mike

[Johnny P]

There was the episode where the 1st generation Colt SAA was brought in. The expert was called, and proclaimed it all matching except the loading gate. The number on the loading gate doesn't match because it is not a serial number, but is an assembly number. The same number is found under the trigger guard on the frame.

[dave]

This thread has been discussed before. Somone ID'ed is as a Freanch design, which I can not remember the name. Said they were quite rare, do not remember him dicussing if it had been modified, but it sure looked like it had.

[Guamsst]

Sometimes other people identify someone as an "Expert" based on faulty logic. I have been called an "Enfield expert" because I own about 10 different Enfields. I am not an "Expert" though, I am an "enthusiast" and there is a huge difference. Same thing when people want to ask me about Nazi memorabilia because I have a small fortune invested in Japanese militaria.

I wonder who proclaimed the pawnstars weapons guy as an "Expert"

[Dick Hosmer]

In all fairness - NO one can be an "expert" in ALL fields of weaponry. The guy just seems - to me - a trifle smug at times, and, I cannot recall him ever saying "I think" or "I believe". The show is, after all, only entertainment, and not where one would go for the last word in detail on anything.

As to the $4000 M1884, I suspect Rick will have it for quite awhile - what is hard to believe is that he must have paid dearly for it in the beginning, and is not yet ready to concede that he'll likely not get his expected 100% markup. He's no dummy and can read Flayderman just like anyone else.

[Guamsst]

. He's no dummy and can read Flayderman just like anyone else.

Yep, I keep a small stack of reference books and price guides with me when I set up at gunshows. I might get ripped off. But I can atleast keep it in the ballpark.