1858 enfield

[noslack 327]

Now I am waiting for delivery of a parker hale copy of the 1858 Enfield musket, I think it is going to be a very nice rifle. Made in Birmingham england. cal 58.This one was made in about 1973, guess I have to cast some minnies now. :grommit:

[Hefights]

One made in that era should have the proper rifling for accurate shooting and should indeed be a very nice one. Unless you can find decent quality lead minnies on the market that shoot well in your rifle, you are in for casting your own using an appropriate mold. Let us know when you get it and have a chance to try it out.

[Griff Murphey]

I have a Parker Hale M1853 I bought at Camp Pendleton in 1975. I never could get it to shoot my own minies but I wasn't sizing them. I think if you are going to shoot Minies be prepared to learn a lot about casting, sizing, and lubing. I never did.

I took it up to Vermont for the Smugglers' Notch Primitive Biathlon in 2002 and shot it with patched round balls because they don't allow Minies, and I wanted to use the Enfield and be a Victorian Canadian redcoat. Once I figured out the load and the patch thickness I got it shooting well with Hornady .58 round balls. I made up cartridges with my pre-lubed patch Krazy-glued to the ball. I'd tear open the cartridge, pour in the powder, then start the ball with a ball starter, and ram it home with the ramrod. Accuracy was fair, about 4 1/2" groups at 50 yards, not as good as my tackdriver .50 el cheapo Spanish .50 Hawkin of uncertain make! The beauty of it was all through the matches people were getting in a hurry and calling for ball pullers as they'd forget to put in powder first, cartridges avoid that problem.

[noslack 327]

I think it will be a while before I shoot it, Now I have to learn how to and what to use to patch a minnie. My mold will cast a proper .577 minnie ball but they fall down the bore, so I have to find info on how to patch it.

[Doug Rammel]

You don't patch a minnie. Load it and see how it shots. The minnie will upset and fill the bore when you fire it.

[noslack 327]

You don't patch a minnie. Load it and see how it shots. The minnie will upset and fill the bore when you fire it.Yes however it will fall out the bbl with nothing around the minnie, Like paper from a paper ctg.

[Weasel]

Not trying to be a smart a$$ but it sounds to me that it wasn't a 577 minnie but more like a 570. The 1858 endfield is a military rifle so you want get a tight group. If you want a target rifle buy a Whitworth.

[Griff Murphey]

The Brit Enfield WAS .577. The Parker Hale Enfield duplicates a feature of the original Enfield which is: there is a slight taper to the bore so it gets tighter at the muzzle. So the fact that it almost falls to the rear is not necessarily bad. I guess that means you fired it; surely you did not drop one down on an empty chamber??? If so I guess you got it out!

Minies do not "upset" as one of the comments said; actually, the skirt theoretically expands and grips the rifling. The grooves are supposed to be filled with grease and you can buy various forms of lubrication like "Spit Ball" or just use Crisco. Some minies were "patched" by wrapping with paper but I don't know how they made that work. My biggest problem with minies was that when I cast them I had trouble getting a uniform size. Some almost fell in, others had to be pounded in. The loose ones seemed to shoot the best. When ever I got a real tight one I learned to fire it off into the butts 'cause usually it'd hit somewhere crazy. Serious minie makers cast them, then select the most uniform by weight, and size and lubricate them.

Hornady made some "Great Plains" Minies. I have some .58's but never got around to testing them since I could not shoot them in the match. Haven't shot my 1853 in 9 years...

[noslack 327]

Thanks for the info, I am new to attempting to use the minie. my cast bullets measure .577 from the lyman mold, my bore measures .580. I understand how the skirt is supposed to work, how it will expand when fired, what i am afraid of is the minie moving forward of the powder rather than remaining seated on top the powder, or worse carrying the rifle muzzle down and both the minie and powder falling out. any way thanks to all for the info.

[Embalmer]

I shoot .575 minnies out of my euroarm 1853 enfield, and it hits gallon milk jugs at 150 yards with ease

[SMOKEY]

The enfield is .577, but a .58 works just fine. Only problem I had with mine was finding the front sight. Eyes aint what they use to be so I had a taller one put one. Works beautifully and when it connects with a whitetail they do not go far, usually straight up and straight down. Beautiful weapon to shoot.

[Griff Murphey]

I'm thinking a heavier wax on the base of the bullet might hold it better; maybe dip it in some beeswax? Start it with a ball starter, wipe off the excess wax, and then ramrod it on in? I'd look in the Dixie catalog and see what bullet lubes they have and recommend - it is a very valuable reference. Maybe the North-South Skirmish Association (NSSA) has a website with more info? I can't think you would ever carry it in true muzzle-down mode unless you were in the rain which- good luck with that!

[Hefights]

I had a friend who purchased a Parker Hale Enfield Artillery Musket in the 90's, and he was never happy with the accuracy. I think he was trying to use minies purchased from a commercial source, and did not cast them.

Dont want to start trouble, but here goes my experience, like it or not (I am sure this will elicit an array of differing opinions). Just like black powder cartridge, my view is that you have to get a decent quality rifle/musket, and then get a bullet mold that is a good fit for your rifle or musket barrel, and then learn the art of proper lead casting, something that takes time to get right.

I purchased a 2 band Parker Hale also from late 90's, and it was not very accurate for me with Navy minies and several others purchased from a variety of sources. It would not shoot into a "pie plate" or a gallon jug at 100yds, despite many minie and powder charge combinations and long hours at the range. My research subsequently indicated that the original muskets, and the earlieir versions of modern Parker Hales, had barrels with "progressive" rifling or "gain twist" rifling that made them more accurate. I believe the later versions of Parker Hales, just like other Italian replicas, do not have that type of rifling, which is more expensive to manufacture. That makes them more difficult to shoot accurately. Apparently the standard back in the 1860's was that the musket should be able to shoot minies into 4 inch or less groups at 100 yd (like 3 or 5 shots without cleaning bet shots). That is a pretty high standard for a musket, even a rifled musket. Something that mine or my friend's Parker Hale would never do.

The guys that shoot in NSSA competition regularly have worked out the right combination of muskets or rifles and lead projectiles to be accurate for competition. Some of them have acquired actual original civil war era muskets, having barrels with progressive rifling in good condition that they shoot. Several of them told me you have to keep your loads down around 50 gr black powder for best accuracy in competition. The NSSA business is a very specialized game, farily close knit group of folks, and none of them want to complain about any of the replicas as I think they consider that bad form, and maybe it is. From my experience if you have a musket that will shoot minies into 4 inches, or a pie plate, or a gallon jug at 100yd, you are doing great and should be very happy. There you have my view, YMMV, so now you can correct me, tell me how I should have done it, or flame away as you will.

[noslack 327]

Again I thank everyone for the info. As soon as it warns up a little here I will go to the range. again thanks.

[Griff Murphey]

Let me just add one more thing....2 cents worth. Yes, I do know they were designed to shoot Minies. But I never got mine to shoot very well with them.

One thing I do know about is shooting round balls out of those things. Suggest you buy several 1/4 yard swatches of linen and get a good micrometer. One thickness is going to work the best with a given brand of round ball. You want to have an experienced muzzle loader shooter show you how to cut the patch and how to lube it. Then shoot the piece for group at 25 yards with a variety of loads. To get consistent accuracy you want the rifle to crack. It's going to take somewhere over 50 grs. to get good accuracy.

[musketshooter]

When the grease grooves are properly lubed, there should be no problem with them staying in place. My PH carbine has a .577 bore and is a great shooter with RCBS mini balls. I have always had better luck with the RCBS bullets than the Lyman bullet.

[noslack 327]

When the grease grooves are properly lubed, there should be no problem with them staying in place. My PH carbine has a .577 bore and is a great shooter with RCBS mini balls. I have always had better luck with the RCBS bullets than the Lyman bullet.Thanks for the info.

[cwartyman]

I shoot N-SSA the website is www.n-ssa.org. With minnies you need to know your bore size and size your minnie to .001 to .002 under bore size for best accuracy. As far as lube you can use everything from plain crisco, crisco and beeswax, to prepared lubes like mcm and lens lube. I am currently using crisco/ beeswax for hot weather and plain crisco for colder. Register with the N-ssa website and youll get great info. If its a repro gun there are things you can do to make the gun shoot better like a trigger job and bedding the barrel to how tight you make you the tang screw.
Mack

[cwartyman]

British made parker hale barrels have progressive depth rifling the muzzle is tighter than the rest of the bore. the minnie has to be small enough to go into the muzzle then when fired will expand into the rifling and be squeezed down as it travels down the bore iirc correctly they may also be gain twist also. If you cant get it to shoot with proper sized minnies than you mave a skirt stuck in the breech area or the nipple might need to replaced. also see the other tips for getting it to shoot i posted above.
Mack

[noslack 327]

British made parker hale barrels have progressive depth rifling the muzzle is tighter than the rest of the bore. the minnie has to be small enough to go into the muzzle then when fired will expand into the rifling and be squeezed down as it travels down the bore iirc correctly they may also be gain twist also. If you cant get it to shoot with proper sized minnies than you mave a skirt stuck in the breech area or the nipple might need to replaced. also see the other tips for getting it to shoot i posted above.
MackThank you for the info.

[Hefights]

Now you got the real experts coming to your aid, and that is good because they know all the tricks. Yes, I think that the older generation of the Parker Hale muskets, like the 1970's vintage you have, had the progressive depth rifling. I am pretty sure that those made currently, and like since the late 90's or so do not have the progressive depth rifling. I know that you used to see the descriptions of them in Navy Arms and Dixie cataloges as having progressive rifling, and now you don't see that. The minnies have those grooves that are angled forward for that type of shooting. A really pretty clever design when you consider it and what they could achieve back then.

[noslack 327]

Now you got the real experts coming to your aid, and that is good because they know all the tricks. Yes, I think that the older generation of the Parker Hale muskets, like the 1970's vintage you have, had the progressive depth rifling. I am pretty sure that those made currently, and like since the late 90's or so do not have the progressive depth rifling. I know that you used to see the descriptions of them in Navy Arms and Dixie cataloges as having progressive rifling, and now you don't see that. The minnies have those grooves that are angled forward for that type of shooting. A really pretty clever design when you consider it and what they could achieve back then.
I think it should be a lot of fun. In the 1850's British Army you shot at a 2 foot bull out to 600 yards. 650 to 900 yards they used a 3 foot bull. 2 points a hit, 7 points and you were a marksman.

[Griff Murphey]

I was just thumbing through the new S&S Firearms Parts catalog and they have a wide selection of .58 Minies from .575 to .580 including some they say are specifically FOR the Parker Hale. Prices are doable, too.

[cwartyman]

Griiff,
There are no Minnies specifically for Parker Hales. There are Parker Hale moulds and then there are Pritchard style Minnies that are paper patched as the have no grease grooves. The thing to do is have your barrel slugged and see what size Minnie it takes than size to .001 under if not using in competion.
Mack

[noslack 327]

Again everyone thank you for taking the time to pass on the info.

[noslack 327]

Well I made it to the range yesterday, I have to say this is a fun rifle to shoot, Using a civil war style Minnie at 50 yards I got 4 inch 3 shot groups. This was with 68 gr of 2f black powder, The only problem is the rear sight starts at 100 yards and the rifle shoots 6 inches high. I guess that would put it about center at 100 yards. I have to wait for all this rain to stop to get back to the range. I loaded 25 shots and never had a problem loading.

Last week I bought a parker hale musketoon new in the box, along with the accessory box containing molding blocks for the rifle. It will be interesting to see if this one shoots high. I was lucky with this one as it had all the books and paper work with it.

[Embalmer]

Yep under 100 yards you need to aim below point of aim on target. enfields tend to "arch" till they hit lowest setting at 100 yards.

[noslack 327]

Thanks for the Info, I see some N SSA rifles with a much higher brass front sight.

[cwartyman]

Unless you are hunting there is no need to go above 50 grains of powder. Most of us in the N-SSA are shooting between 35- 50 grains of powder. If you use 3f in your enfields you will find your groups will tighten up with a lower powder charge. I shoot 45 gr of 3f behind a hodgen skirmisher minnie sized to .574 in my 3 band 55.
Mack

[noslack 327]

Unless you are hunting there is no need to go above 50 grains of powder. Most of us in the N-SSA are shooting between 35- 50 grains of powder. If you use 3f in your enfields you will find your groups will tighten up with a lower powder charge. I shoot 45 gr of 3f behind a hodgen skirmisher minnie sized to .574 in my 3 band 55.
MackI will try it, sounds like a good idea, however all my powder is 2F about 22 lbs of it.

[cwartyman]

try using 45 gr of 2f and work up to 50 gr all you need is for the minnie to expand into the grooves. If you use too much powder you expand the skirt of the minnie too much or blow off the skirt and your accuracy will stink.

If you want to install a higher front sight you can get them from S&S firearms at www.ssfirearms.com knock or grind off the front sight and then silver solder the new one on. You not only gain the advantage to sight in at 50 yds but if you put the rear sight at 200 yd position after you have filed the sight for 50 you can file the rear sight base to get it zeroed at 100 and with a propane torch at the range you can adjust your windage. Just remember that front sight adjustment is the opposite of rear. If you want to raise the strike of the round you lower the height. If you need the strike of the round to move right you move the front sight to the left.

[Embalmer]

I use 50 grains ff and .575 minnie balls in both of my euroarms 1853 enfields, 1861 springfield, and armisport 61 springfield with good results. Never measured groups, but rather trend to shoot at a stash of bowling pins I have at 100 yards with iron sights, and 250-300 with my scoped sniper enfield.

[noslack 327]

Thanks to all, I am getting a lot of hard to find info.

[John Sukey]

Just don't shoot downhill and the bullet won't fall out;)
After the first shot, the fouling in the barrel will keep the bullet from moving.

[noslack 327]

That is good advice, thanks I guess if you hunt with it a dirty bore is better.

[cwartyman]

You will find that alot of times your first shot out of a cold clean barrel with these type of weapons will shoot to a different point of aim than the following shots. Also if you are going to use it for hunting I would Glass bed the stock which will help in accuracy it tightens up what can be very loose tang/breech and barrel contact. Almost none of the top shooters in the N-SSA use a free floated musket barrel most either full bed the barrel channel or make pads near the barrel bands. For hunting I would full bed the barrel channel as it will keep the stock from swelling if it gets wet and throwing off your shots. I have used both methods on my muskets and with quality barrels I cant see an advantage in accuracy both ways seem to shoot better than an unbedded stock. With the enfield you have to have tight barrel bands or they will come off. On Springfield types I relieve wood on the outside of the stock so the bands are loose and the band spring holds them in place. I also dont crank down on the tang screw i snug it up and then back it about a 1/4 turn.
Mack

[Doug Ford]

I also have a Parker Hale and mine has a full bedded stock. It is very accurate at 50 yards but then the bullet (different types) takes a nose dive at 100 yards! Have not figured out that one out yet.

I have been slowly filing the front sight and the POI is moving up slowly. Right now I am using 60grs of 2F. I also put the rear sight up to 200 yards.

What I did was contact a custom minie ball maker and he sent me a good sized amount of the different types of bullets he swags. So far, the Enfield Mimie ball is working out the best of the 7 different types. I looked for the guy but could not find him. He was CW Bulletman.

When or if you take your barrel off, you will find some information pressed into the steel. If I remember, it states the bore size and max load. However, that load is over 100 grs and you do not need that much

I also have found that the rifle is very sensitive on how you hold it. Please try to be as consistent as possible with the cheek hold.....

[noslack 327]

A while back I was able to buy a parker hale 1861 enfield Musketoon new in the box, with all paper work. It also had a accessory pack and a box marked parker hale with a .577 mold which produces a 505 grain mini. lyman # 57213. These have been working really well, but I will try 45 grains of 2f. The loading data shows starting loads at 68.35 grains, and max at 123.03 grain. They show the proof load was 7 drams of black powder, 191.38 grains. with a 724 grain bullet. The proof house load on the bottom of the barrel lists a service load as 3.5 drams or 95.69 grains with a 536 grain bullet. I will have to have the musket glass bedded. Again I thank everyone for taking the time to post information, this really is a great place to learn. The information listed here is for the Royal Artillery .577 caliber carbine ser # 5500. Made by Parker Hale in England.

[Ray P]

Great thread! This is very helpful info for my 1861 Musketoon (the barrel says Lyman, but the stampings say 1975 Armi San Paolo/EuroArms).

CWArtyman: How difficult is silver soldering on a new front sight? Mine also shoots substantially high (8") at 50 yds; and I'd like to get that fixed rather than rely on the "hold under" method. Haven't brazed in decades; is there a risk of me screwing up the bbl with too much heat?

[cwartyman]

Use emery paper to rough up slightly the bottom part of the front sight base and also where you put the sight on the barrel. Take the front sight apply the torch to it just to get it hot not change colors then apply acid flux. Do the same to the barrel but try to be very careful about using too much acid as if it runs it will destroy the blue. Now apply heat to the base of the front sight and tin it with the silver solder. Dont need globs of solder just a thin smear as even as possible on the base. After solder sets up place sight on barrel in the position you want it and apply heatto the base and the barrel when the sight "sits down" on the barrel remove heat. If the sight is where you want it let it cool and you are done if not reheat and move the sight very gently (very easy to send flying) to where you want it. It probably took more time to write this than to actually do it. In brazing you are are actually melting the two pieces together, here only the solder melts so the heat is much less.
Mack

[rayg]

If I recall, when I was shooting my original Enfield 577. I used to load some real light loads of about 30 grs black FFG. as you don't need a lot of powder to expand the skirt of the minnie and I remember it was quite accurate and I used those loads to shoot at the balloons and the axe edge at 35 yds. Ray

[Gus Fisher]

In 1980, I purchased an original Parker Hale 1858 two band musket to use as a Confederate States Marine in reenactlments. My first trip to the NSSA nationals was in 1974, so I was well aware of sizing minie's for it by then. I worked guns at the Nationals, so I never shot there in the 24 plus years I went when I wasn't stationed somewhere else. The Parker Hales were made from borrowed pattern gages from the Tower of London and Parker Hale made a copy of those gages for theiir guns. That's why parts from original "Interchangeable Pattern" Enfields (like the Tower Muskets) and the original Parker Hales will interchange 100 percent.

I decided one day to actually shoot a cartridge box full of cartidges to see what it was like. I used 60 grain charges as I was told that was the original "Service Load." I was iin a reproduction uniform when I shot it without a shoulder pad of any sort. Well, it took about 2 1/2 hours and there were tears flowing down my cheeks from the pain on the last of the 40 rounds I fired. I was able to hide the fact I severely brusied my shoulder and it took a few days to heal up. The straighter stock of the Enfield rifles gives you harder recoil than the more curved Mississippi or Springfield buttstocks. Even when the andrenaline was running in combat, I KNOW they had to hurt bad if they fired that many rounds back then.

BTW, I purchased an original Cutlass Bayonet to wear for "Parade or Dress" occasions and that fit EXACTLY like it should have with no alterations whatsoever.

[noslack 327]

Time to take them out again. I have cast a couple of hundred projectiles, I will be using all the good info I received here thanks all.

[noslack 327]

4,437 views, what a great place for learning, thanks everyone.

[noslack 327]

Now I have to recast or try mice chewed .58 cal minis, seems mice like bees wax/lard lub, they took of all the lub and chewed the lead, wonder if the lead will kill them.

[armorkav]

Dixie Gun Works have always supplied the need for odd and obscure BP accessories. To include BP.

[noslack 327]

Gatofeo a lot of good info here.

[Conductor]

I shot a Parker-Hale "2-bander" 1858 Enfield in NSSA competition for several years with excellent results. The best load for me was the Lyman 575213-OS and 42 grains of 2F Goex. Shooting 42 grains, I could shoot clover leaves at 50 yards. But if I upped the charge to 44 grains, the group would open up to about 4 inches.
For a lube, I used a mix of 2/3 Crisco and 1/3 beeswax. The bore on my gun slugged out to .577, so I sized my bullets to .575 after lubing them.

[QCI Springfield]

The story about the parts being interchangeable with the originals is a myth started by Parker-Hale when they first introduced them. The barrels are slightly heavier, and the other parts all differ enough that they won't interchange without a lot of work. It seems to me that even the lockplates differ. And yes, I did dismantle both an original and a '70's vintage Parker-Hale. Most disappointed....


In 1980, I purchased an original Parker Hale 1858 two band musket to use as a Confederate States Marine in reenactlments. My first trip to the NSSA nationals was in 1974, so I was well aware of sizing minie's for it by then. I worked guns at the Nationals, so I never shot there in the 24 plus years I went when I wasn't stationed somewhere else. The Parker Hales were made from borrowed pattern gages from the Tower of London and Parker Hale made a copy of those gages for theiir guns. That's why parts from original "Interchangeable Pattern" Enfields (like the Tower Muskets) and the original Parker Hales will interchange 100 percent.

I decided one day to actually shoot a cartridge box full of cartidges to see what it was like. I used 60 grain charges as I was told that was the original "Service Load." I was iin a reproduction uniform when I shot it without a shoulder pad of any sort. Well, it took about 2 1/2 hours and there were tears flowing down my cheeks from the pain on the last of the 40 rounds I fired. I was able to hide the fact I severely brusied my shoulder and it took a few days to heal up. The straighter stock of the Enfield rifles gives you harder recoil than the more curved Mississippi or Springfield buttstocks. Even when the andrenaline was running in combat, I KNOW they had to hurt bad if they fired that many rounds back then.

BTW, I purchased an original Cutlass Bayonet to wear for "Parade or Dress" occasions and that fit EXACTLY like it should have with no alterations whatsoever.