View Full Version : The primer crunch.........
Greg H. in Virginia
10-24-2009, 01:40
..........is still alive and well, at least in these parts, and still caused by the greed of hoarders and scalpers who buy them up, and the dealers who let them do it.
Today, my brother-in-law and I went to the gun show at the Fredericksburg Expo Center, getting there about 45 minutes after the doors opened. We went straight back to a reloading supplies dealer who is always there, and asked for large pistol primers. The dealer said that he had been wiped out of them by several early customers who bought cases of them. All he had left was small rifle and one brick of large rifle primers at $35 a brick.
I hope all the hoarders who are looking to make money by re-selling primers at scalper prices get stuck with them if and when supply actually catches up with demand. FWIW, the local Gander Mountain is selling large pistol primers at $4.99 per box of 100. I don't think I'll be buying from them either.
Powder Valley has LP,LR & SR primers on their website tonight @ $25.50/M + s&h.
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/
Matt Anthony
10-25-2009, 03:07
The person who buys up large lots of primers or for that matter any merchandise is a thinking individual trying to make a buck. I don't fault them for it and I encourage free enterprise in every aspect of the business world. You can call them hoarders, but that's immature at best. Whether it's for personal use or to sell them is their business and their business alone. Sportsman Guide must be the biggest hoarder, they buy up tons of merchandise at little cost and sell at a huge profit. Are they hoarders, NO, they are smart and intelligent to do what they do. Stop crying in your beer and take a lesson from them. The early bird gets the worm, and that's life!
As for gun shows, buying components from individuals is something I stopped years ago when I myself was stung by a charleton who sold me primers that had been exposed to flood water. The packaging looked fine, just a wee bit old. Half of the primers were deteriorated right in the cups.
So, in closing, I don't even bother going to gun shows any longer and buy from solid companies such as Widener's, PowderValleyinc.com, Natchez, Midsouth, Champion, Bruno's, LSB and MidwayUSA.com. What's nice about those companies, you can buy all you want without being called names!
This is not about capitalism nor is it about free enterprise. Being a draft dodger back in the 60's because you could earn more money by working in the oil fields was not free enterprise. It was draft dodging and if you did that you were in fact punishing the guy who had to go in your place.
Using the CMP as a personal profit center is morally wrong. The CMP is a not for profit organization. By using them to earn a profit you are defeating their stated purpose.
If hoarding and price gouging primers etc is OK, WOW I bet you would have a good time hoarding baby formula while watching babies starve. By hoarding, speculating, and price gouging you are depriving young folks who would have become members of the shooting community the right to do that. When we loose the RTKBA because our ranks are dwindling, and are not being replaced by younger people, you will be able to look back at this time and say "Boy look at that $1,000 I made back in '09! Those sure were the good ol' days."
Meantime, no need for Obamama to pass new gun laws, you are killing the sport for him! Congratulations! :eusa_wall:
My Mother worked for the Selective Service System during the Vietnam war and I can tell you it would have been very unlikely for anyone to get out of the draft to work in the oilfields.
I don't see the connection between the sixties draft, baby formula, the CMP and primer hoarding .
I do see a great system in this country where a man can use his freedoms to get ahead and GOD I LOVE IT!!
My former college roommate Roger Cra------d, dropped out of college in 1964 and received a draft notice a few weeks later. He went to Saudi Arabia and worked in the oil fields over there for 3 years and made a lot of money. If you want to call me a liar then have the nads to do it up front. He now owns a business in St Joeseph MO, and lives in a $million dollar house. He never served a day in the military and received no punishment for dodging the draft.
These Jackasses that have ruined the shooting sports for thousands, make all kinds of excuses to justify their behavior. Roger will tell you today that dodging the draft is the best thing he ever did and I guess these guys will tell you helping out Obamama kill the RTKBA is the best thing they have ever done. Don't make it right.
And your Honor that is how the fight started. lol
Listen Red, I would alot more rather be your friend than your enemy and I in no way called you a liar and I don't intend to no matter how bad you confuse the facts.
That being said, what does one person dodging the draft 45 years ago have to do with the primer shortage today?
45 years ago a guy dodged the draft and said he did it for "economic" reasons. Today folks are manipulating the system and claim they are doing it because of "economic reasons", "free enterprise" and capitalism. Same lame excuse.
Truth is, these guys don't give a hoot about anybody but themselves. They would kill their mother for a $.01 profit. That is OK because it is "free enterprise."
You said "I can tell you it would have been very unlikely for anyone to get out of the draft to work in the oilfields." That is a direct contradiction to what I said about Roger. You are in effect telling me that it didn't happen... in other words I made it up and if I made it up, then it is a lie and you are calling me a liar.
By the way I know another draft dodger. He fled to Granada to avoid the draft. He has a business in Concordia, MO and primarily sells grain augers. Drive down I-70 and you can see his grain augers on display. Stop in and visit Concordia Implement Co.702 E 1st St. Concordia, MO 64020-7338 Pho. (660) 463-284
If what I am saying is a lie, then why do these guys not sue me for liable. They won't because the truth is a valid defense!
OK I am done. Rant off... send me to the romper room... I give...
Red, we are not that much different, I don't like people that refuse to do their share and that includes the Vietnam war draft dodgers. I also don't like jane fonda, liberals, mr. jug ears and a host of other things that endanger my way of life. My time spent reading these forums is to share conversation with people that think like me, I did not come here to challenge you , insult you or try to reform you.
I do see you have some very strong feelings about people buying more primers than what they need at the moment. I don't see it as any more than a temporary thing that will work itself out and I agree to leave it at that. If you get locked in the romper room we will negotiate you're release or break you out.:)
Matt Anthony
10-26-2009, 02:56
Red, we are not that much different, I don't like people that refuse to do their share and that includes the Vietnam war draft dodgers. I also don't like jane fonda, liberals, mr. jug ears and a host of other things that endanger my way of life. My time spent reading these forums is to share conversation with people that think like me, I did not come here to challenge you , insult you or try to reform you.
I do see you have some very strong feelings about people buying more primers than what they need at the moment. I don't see it as any more than a temporary thing that will work itself out and I agree to leave it at that. If you get locked in the romper room we will negotiate you're release or break you out.:)
I don't believe how this thread was distorted, but it was. I won't be posting directly to Red, I think he went off the road with oil guy! If the guy truly evaded the draft, why hasn't he been proscecuted? Surely the authorities know, and if they don't, then snitch on him! Turn him in and see if justice is done, or let the entire matter roll off your back and let our Lord GOD deal with it, cause Red is sure having a hard time with it.
No one who bought primers early on caused the shortage and people can buy as many as they want if they are for sale and at whatever price they are willing to buy them at. If one wishes not to get stung, don't buy at gun shows, stay with solid business's that don't rip the people off. None of the business's that I posted have ever ripped me off, and you can still buy primers. I've been buying them from Widener's, Powdervalley and Sinclair. During the last year there may have been a 3 month period when no one had primers, but that has since changed.
If you check out the online stores on a very regular basis, like every day, you will find primers. You just have to be there first! One other point, profit is not a dirty word, the more you make, the more you can have and that's the way it is!
I reload alot. A case of primers doesn't last very long. In retrospect I should have bought three cases of each size instead of a case of each.:icon_scratch:
Greg H. in Virginia
10-27-2009, 07:32
I draw a distinction between the healthy exercise of free enterprise, and hoarding with the intent to price gouge later. The primer hoarders looking to take advantage of lean times can eat those primers for all I care, 'cause I won't be buying from them at scalper prices. Scroom, I say.
I think that most of the primer pigs are buying out of fear and stupidity, not to re-sell.
Who's going to buy from them at inflated prices? Not me or anyone that I know. Primers will be back in the pipeline soon and the hoarders will be stuck with the same 30 to 50k primers that they're sitting on now.
Matt Anthony
10-29-2009, 03:15
I draw a distinction between the healthy exercise of free enterprise, and hoarding with the intent to price gouge later. The primer hoarders looking to take advantage of lean times can eat those primers for all I care, 'cause I won't be buying from them at scalper prices. Scroom, I say.
The loose talk using the word "hoarding" is comical. Hundreds of companies do the same thing with the hope of selling the merchandise at a huge profit, and when someone or a company corners the market, then they stand to reap the most profit.
The bottom line is this, there were many, many warnings for the last two years about shortages. This was broadcasted on many forums. I remember being one of the broadcasters who was labeled an alarmist and laughed at.
I guess it's not funny now, I have enough primers to last for the rest of my life and my grandchildren, but many have none. And if I choose to sell any, you bet it will be at current prices or whatever the price will bear! I will make a huge profit on them if I do sell them, and I am entitled to the profit as I am the one who put the money out to buy them. I took the risk, not the cry baby who is too immature to understand basic business principals.
In fact, I just sold 5 boxes of Hansen 7X57 175 grain FMJ ammo at $22.00 a box. The guy didn't complain and I didn't tell him that I paid $6.99 a box either. I bought this ammo 15 years ago on sale at my local, (now defunct) overpriced gun shop. I bought all 75 boxes and have made money on every single one of them!
Primers are not hard to buy right now, just go to powdervalleyinc.com or Widener's, you can buy all the Wolf primers you want and at reasonable prices.
Matt
Well Powder Valley now only has Wolf primers in LP SR and LR
I have never used Wolf primers does anyone have any feedback on the Wolf
Regards Bausch
Matt Anthony
10-29-2009, 09:17
Everyone who I know that uses them have had good luck, no mis-fires. The only thing you must remember is use the small rifle magnum primer for everything except 22 Hornet and 218 Bee.
What I like about the large rifle and large rifle mag. primers is the cup size is slightly larger than the Remington, Federal and Winchester. So if you have cases that appear to have enlarged primer pockets, try the Wolf, you will see they will seat with the proper amount of pressure as if the case was new.
Matt
The loose talk using the word "hoarding" is comical. Hundreds of companies do the same thing with the hope of selling the merchandise at a huge profit, and when someone or a company corners the market, then they stand to reap the most profit.
The bottom line is this, there were many, many warnings for the last two years about shortages. This was broadcasted on many forums. I remember being one of the broadcasters who was labeled an alarmist and laughed at.
I guess it's not funny now, I have enough primers to last for the rest of my life and my grandchildren, but many have none. And if I choose to sell any, you bet it will be at current prices or whatever the price will bear! I will make a huge profit on them if I do sell them, and I am entitled to the profit as I am the one who put the money out to buy them. I took the risk, not the cry baby who is too immature to understand basic business principals.
+1. Have never seen so many cry babies on the shooting forums as I have lately. I figure these must be young guys who were brought up playing sports in which they don't keep score and "everybody is a winner", lest they hurt their feelings. Yeech!
Don
Matt Anthony
10-29-2009, 12:16
Don:
I agree with you on the cry baby crap, I too have noticed it on many other forums also.
Matt
Dan In Indiana
10-29-2009, 02:14
You forgot that they exist, therefore they are entitled.
OFC
Johnny P
10-30-2009, 01:46
Don't the Latter-Day Saints keep a one year supply of essential foods? I really don't see an obvious problem with that just because ours is a week to week thing, and some times it is a day to day thing.
Reloading is not a "Just In Time" proposition. I have never sold a primer, bullet, or can of powder, but I do keep as much as I want on hand.
Bernie Madoff must be your hero. What he did and you guys are now trying to justify is just plain rotten. I'm not talking about somebody that keeps a year or two supply of primers and I'm not talking about somebody that is operating a legitimate business. I am talking about the guys with 500,000 of every size primer in their basements hoping the USA collapses.
Apparently in today's society, honesty and fair play are curse words. Cheaters, liars, and thieves are heroes and looked up to. Folks who join the military and fight for our country are fools and anybody that thinks "doing the right thing" is a good thing is a cry baby. Well I for one, am a cry baby. KMAYCS.
:eusa_silenced:
Bernie Madoff must be your hero. What he did and you guys are now trying to justify is just plain rotten.
Bernie Madoff stole money from people. We are talking about people who took their hard-earned money and spent it on something they wanted in a perfectly legal business transaction. It's neither my business nor yours, what or how many legal items are held in anyone's basement. Equating a thief and felon to someone who has something you wish you had, shows your lack of intellectual honesty.
Don
I have all the primers & powder etc. that I will possibly use in the rest of my life. I don't wish I had anything.
What I don't have, is any idea why you want to kill the sport you claim to love. I personally know young people that would like to get into reloading but can't because people like you are trying to corner the market for your own profit. Why is it this shortage came along all of a sudden? If you were so smart, why didn't you, over the years, build a supply of primers etc. and then replace the ones you use 500 or 1,000 at a time like most of us?
The answers to these questions are pretty obvious. You either are trying to make a windfall profit or scared sheiteless. The harm you guys are doing to this sport is far and above greater than any Sarah Brady, Obamama, Bubba Clinton, etc have done combined.
Cowardice and greed apparently, is the new standard for the sport. Congratulations!
Regards,
Cry Baby
Matt Anthony
11-02-2009, 04:10
Red:
If you have all the primers and powder you will need the rest of your life, then share them with the ones that are starting out in your area. We all help others, in one way or another.
Here, if you need primers and powder, go to powdervalleyinc.com or Widener's, you can still buy primers and powder. Many of us have had to purchase Accurate and other brands because our favorite brands are sold out, so live with it like we have had to live with it.
Just stop the complaining, it's getting old!
Matt
I personally know young people that would like to get into reloading but can't because people like you are trying to corner the market for your own profit.
Haven't sold a single primer (not that it's any of your concern), so don't know how I profit on anything.
Why is it this shortage came along all of a sudden?
I've taken graduate level economics. You obviously need to take a basic Econ 101 course if you can't figure something this simple out.
If you were so smart, why didn't you, over the years, build a supply of primers etc. and then replace the ones you use 500 or 1,000 at a time like most of us?
I did build up a supply of primers and powder for a lifetime, just like you. I am simply defending the right of anyone to enter into legal transactions without someone whining.
The harm you guys are doing to this sport is far and above greater than any Sarah Brady, Obamama, Bubba Clinton, etc have done combined.
Cowardice and greed apparently, is the new standard for the sport.
Hmmm, you've said you've got "all the primers & powder etc. that I will possibly use in the rest of my life", and so do I. But, for some reason known only to you, you're OK and I'm greedy. Cowardice? Fail to see how that even enters into the discussion, but there's alot of your discourse that defies logic.
Don
mold maker
11-03-2009, 10:45
Enough already !!!!!!
If you were smart enough to see this coming, and laid in a supply, Good on ya.
If ya had your head in the sand, and didn't invest in the future, pay the price and learn from the experience.
I too wish I could go down to the local hardware and buy all I needed, but that time is long gone.
The constant banter about those "who have" being the problem is hog wash. They just used their brains. What ever they bought was to insure that they could continue a life style they were accustomed to.
Those that didn't do the same either ignored the obvious or bought into the "Gov will take care of everybody" BS.
I didn't like it when gas was $4.+ but I paid it just like you are having to pay for primers and powder. It's called supply and demand, but you can't demand a bigger supply.
Blaming those who looked ahead isn't getting anybody any primers. I'll bet the next time, those that are now complaining the loudest, will be the ones with the biggest inventory.
It isn't the guys that planned ahead that has caused the problem. It is the guys that didn't plan and then after the fact went out and bought in a panic that has caused this problem. Guys that went out and bought 5,000 of each SR, SP, LR,LP primers and have never in their entire life loaded a single round. I got caught low on SP primers because I didn't reload SP rounds. I didn't own a gun that used 'em. I bought a CZ82 back in the spring. According to you I should have known 3 years ago that I was going to buy that CZ. You guys are just trying to justify your own bad behavior.
The irony here is that the reloading component shortage isn't Obama's or the democrats' fault. It's the fault of people who panicked and bought more components than they'll probably ever use. I saw this happen in the eighties and nineties. Now this thing is internet driven and primer hoards are a status symbol on some forums. If the feds and the UN decide to ban the private manufacture of small arms ammunition, they'll do it no matter how many primers people have in their basements or buried the woods.
John Kepler
11-14-2009, 03:40
You guys are just trying to justify your own bad behavior.
The rub comes in when there's no "bad behavior" involved! Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it...the market, not YOU determines that! If you can't stand Free Enterprise...then move to someplace that operates under a different set of rules, OK Tovarish?
"You are either in the Game to cut the other guy's heart out and eat it in front of him....or you're a sucker! If you don't like those two choices, don't play!" R.A. Heinlein
The only place I noticed any shortage of primers or powder was in FL, where they seemed to be going out as fast as the dealer got them in. First come, first served was the rule. I wasnt first in of course, so I didnt get any. But then, I only inquired when I had to go to that town for something else. I already had plenty of loaded ammo to shoot; and I wasnt completely out of either. Then, when I came back to NJ, I found a store that had enough to sell and I bought it. Nowhere near enough to call myself a hoarder, but enough to keep me happy for awhile. I also bought enough .380 ammo to keep me in brass for a very long time. I think the "instant enterpreneurs" are going to wind up stuck with their surplus, and thats ok by me. Im not going to run out of anything for a long time.
Chris W.
11-14-2009, 03:57
Yesterday at the Reno gun show, some primers were in stock, but going like hotcakes. Prices were the same dealer to dealer @$35 per M. ( never paid that much for primers in 50 years of reloading ) The ammo tables were over run, handtrucks of ammo going out the door. I won't get involved in the previous threads except to say that I'm sure hopeing that this ends soon. Not a stockpile guy, just usualy buy what I need when I need it to keep everything fresh until loaded. I hate to think that all of this will turn my buying into hording just to have some sort of supply. Flyers going around the show that CA will have a new law after Christmas requireing a paper trail on all ammo. The cars in the parking lot had CA almost 9:1 as we are getting close to the start up of this new law. Stuff like this could dry up whatever supplies we were starting to get back in the pipe line. Gota wonder where it is going to end. Guess one thing is for sure, bunches of CA residents will be buying their ammo over here in Nevada from now on. Might end up being a great business to open, Ammo and reloading supplies, close to the border.
Chris
....not all primers were $35.00, some wanted more. One dealer had 50M Remington 7˝ primers for $200.00 ($40.00M) a box of 5M. That was on Friday and when I left on Saturday they were still there.
Yep, the rush was back on for handgun ammo because of the new Kalifornia ammo law. What ammo that was slowly coming back has disappeared again to the rush. In the near future, I wouldn't be suprised if the dealers at the Nevada gun shows would be allowed to sell to Kalifornia residents and they would require a government issued ID (DL) to prove you were not a Kalifornia resident in order to purchase ammo.
Next year, or the year after, Kalifornia residents can look forward to the same ammo law being passed on rifle ammo therefore making all ammo come under one law for control of the ammo in the Golden State. Oh, and the year after that ALL lead bullets will be banned from use in the state in order to protect the three toe willy wog which is high in the food chain and necessary for the survival of the 32 pet buzzards the Fish & Game department has chained up in Paso Robles.
Matt,
Let me see if I have this right, if I have cases that have larger than normal primer pockets (CCI,Win, Fed ect.) primers are lose using the "oversize" wolf will work as a fix to the oversize primer pocket? up to a point.
Here's another question, if the wolf primer "is" oversize just how tight will it be in a new primer pocket? to tight? I cant find a few packs of wolf around here to buy to try all I can find at the stores are CCI, Fed and Winchester so thats all I have to use.
Regards
BudT
CCI primers are hard to find around St. Louis MO. I'm getting federal and winchester but only can buy 1000 at a time. Oh for the good old days when I bought by the case.:icon_salut:
Chris W.
11-15-2009, 02:09
John, I don't see that happening. If Nevada sellers can sell to anyone now, I can see them fighting to protect that. If Calif wants to ban stuff, it's almost been a tridition that anyone can cross the border and buy almost anything short of a firearm. Can also see the Nevada, or other states dealers cashing in on stupid calif laws. Long as there is a buck to be made. All the new law did was create a new black market in California. Free men can still cross the border and make a legal purchase.
Chris
I would bet money that they really do know. CA loses "millions" no 10's of millions of dollars every month of sales due to "stupid is as stupid does" dumb**** laws. Try to imagine this, how many rounds of ammo, how many reloading components, how many illegal and legal fireworks, how many millions of cartons of cigaretts, how much liquer and other spirits and the list goes on goes over the CA border and CA isnt selling it or getting any tax money from it. If people in NV had any brains they would be dancing in the street with joy whenever CA enacts another one of these laws, I know I would be. Sales just across the CA Nevada border can skyrocket. Even here in MT we get CA hunters and fishermen as well as the typical turistas that hit the stores and hard. They take back all sorts of things, like ammo magazines and other stuff. Indian res. between here and the CA border does a "brisk" business this time of the year. I can hardly wait for the dummies to ban cigaretts....commone CA ban ban ban, it's good for business...here.
:banana100:
Regards
BudT
Matt Anthony
11-16-2009, 03:00
Matt,
Let me see if I have this right, if I have cases that have larger than normal primer pockets (CCI,Win, Fed ect.) primers are lose using the "oversize" wolf will work as a fix to the oversize primer pocket? up to a point.
Here's another question, if the wolf primer "is" oversize just how tight will it be in a new primer pocket? to tight? I cant find a few packs of wolf around here to buy to try all I can find at the stores are CCI, Fed and Winchester so thats all I have to use.
Regards
BudT
BudT:
I gave up on Federal once fired because my Remington and Winchester primers would seat so easy, I could push the primers out using a flash hole cleaner from Lyman.
I took all my Federal cases and put them away, just not using them for reloading, but for scrap when the Americans are again using brass for American products.
Two years ago there were warnings that there could be a primer and powder shortage, so I started buying. Wolf was the cheapest back then so I bought a few cases of LRM, LR, SRM and some pistol primers. I just happened to have some time so I took out some Federal cases in my scrap barrel, 308, 30/06, 243 and 22-250. I tried the Magnum large rifle and they seated perfectly in the cases that would not hold the Rem's or Win's. They are slightly larger than the Remingtons and Winchesters and Federals. This doesn't fix the brass, it's just a larger diameter primer. I now use Wolf primers exclusively for all my brass and my Remington's and Winchesters sit vac. packed in my primer cabinet.
Another example was I bought 1000 cases from Midway, they were WWC 04 223 military. Right from the start when I started reloading them I noticed that my Remington, Winchester and Federal primers were seating too easy, again I was able to push the primer out by hand on some of them with my flash hole cleaner. That brass was put back for another day! I tried the SRM from Wolf. Even seating of each primer in the OK cases and the easy cases. I'm sold on Wolf, good ignition, no mis-fires and my loads did not change in velocity when I changed primers.
Try it yourself and I do adhere to reloading safety on dumping brass after they start exhibiting the tell tale signs. I am talking about new or once fired ONLY, not brass that has been fired 15 times and the primers are falling out.
It has been suggested by MA that I snitch on the draft dodgers I mentioned in my earlier post. Now that is really ignorance gone to seed. You guys seem to have missed a teeny weeny detail. That would be that Jimmy Catah pardoned all Vietnam era draft dodgers on his first day at work as the POTUS. Think I'm making it up? Here's the link:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/vietnam_1-21-77.html
As far as economics goes, I will put my MBA and BS in Economics up against all comers on the subject. My final word on this and I then will surrender... if you guys will do a Google and find one time in history that hoarding and panic buying turned our well. I still say you are only trying to justify your own bad behavior. :hello:
John Kepler
11-17-2009, 01:15
As far as economics goes, I will put my MBA and BS in Economics up against all comers on the subject.
Then you KNOW better than what you've written! Oh.....and don't think "hoarding and panic buying" can't work out? Read a little about J.P. Morgan and the Hall Carbine!
"The only thing the man wouldn't steal was a red-hot stove!" A. Lincoln regarding JP Morgan's bud, Simon Cameron
Matt Anthony
11-17-2009, 02:59
Anyone today can buy primers at Powdervalleyinc.com and Widener's. So you can't get your particular favorite brand, so buy a different one!
Also, this thread has moved to senselessness, there isn't a shortage, there's been a dry spell, but all in all anyone who listened that there might be a time when primers were harder to find, they bought primers then.
Of all the reloaders I know, they all have enough for what they want to reload for now and for later. Another point, many reloaders are not shooting as much as they use too, they have toned down there material usage in the face of future controls and political climate we all are living through. Many wanted to make sure they were not hit with the increase in prices every time a scare comes upon us. Seems eating and paying the mortgage is more important in this economic downturn. At our club, we have seen a 30% dropoff in shooters these last 6 month's.
Let's look at buying what's on the shelf, that's not hoarding, in America you can buy what you like, when you like and as often as you see fit.
Do you call a person who saves his money a hoarder??? I doubt it! I wish the armchair fascist economic brain dead complainers would just shut up! They can only blame themselves for not buying when the buying was good! And hat's off to the dealers who now are reaping a good profit, they are making it off the one's that wouldn't listen.
Matt
Matt:
I agree with you on several points: we live in a free economy- you or I can buy want we want at what price we want/ or not, how you spend your money is up to you, you or anybody can sell what is theirs for whatever price they desire, the last round of panic buying/hoarding was foreshadowed, the shortage is rapidly waning, and ultimately it is up ourselves to buy (or not) what we feel we need. (Oh, and how these topics can go completely off course.. :icon_lol:) In other words, I agree with you about: the free market system, individual choices, making money, and personal decisions and living with them.
What I don't understand is that you've tried to use alot of arguments to justify yourself:
You've said that it is your business and noone should judge you. (Why then post your business on an open forum?)
It's a free market. (No arguement there)
People are just crying because I made a smarter decision than they did. (No, You made purchases of unneeded primers at a time when they were scarce, collectively driving up the prices and hurting the other members of this forum. That isn't smart- it's selfish and boasting about it is......goofy)
It's a free market and if I sell at a profit- that's my business ie. the brass you sold. (Ok, but so then you bought the primers to profit from them and not for personal use? Fine but to boast about it to members of this forum??)
Companies do the same thing-- buy things and then sell at a profit. (True and perfectly fine but, by definition, that is taking profit and not hoarding. The shortage was caused by people like you deciding that due to the election that certain laws would effect the availability of primers etc etc and so demand out stripped supply. That happened because people like you kept the primers you bought and didn't resell them, even at a profit. Or are you telling me that you've sold all the primers you bought in the last year or so? )
People should've planned ahead- saw this coming and if they didn't-- Oh well, no sympathy. ( I sortta agree with you. This isn't the first time hoarding has affected the market and the election was on a schedule that everyone knew. But the idea that some people chose not to speculate as you did shouldn't be laughed at yet. At least here in CO, prices are dropping to even below pre-election prices and so, maybe, you, in the end over payed.)
Maybe I am an armchair fascist economic brain dead complainer but your arguments make no sense to me. You chose to post your purchases on this forum and then got upset when people commented on them. You speculated on what would happen to the market and are upset that the other reloaders hurt by the situation aren't happy about your decision. You've attempted to use some weak arguments to justify it, that really don't make sense. And you've contradicted yourself. Just my opinion.
:icon_salut:
Matt Anthony
11-18-2009, 06:21
Well, after reading your post, you certainly do not make any sense! The primers are on the shelf to purchase. If one goes into a store or online and buys all of them, it's their decision, they are for sale and that's that! For whatever reason one buys them, to either reload, sell later or just put them on their shelf and admire them, it's certainly none of our business nor can you fault that person, for any reason. In other words, keep your nose out of others business. Do you get that way when the chocolate ice cream has been sold out or the gum ball machine is empty! How about when all the concert tickets are bought by scalpers and then resold for a profit? Do you get all teary eyed and cry like a little girl! The mentality of this thread is incredible, I've never read so many water soaked posts. Get a grip on yourself, the world doesn't revolve around the weak, it's the strong that survive and flourish when the times get tough.
Am I sympathetic to people who do not listen to warnings, of course not! I am not the only one who bought lots of primers, and I certainly won't be the last. I refuse to apologize for exercising my constitutional rights to do whatever I please as long as I do not break any laws.
Don't go that route with hoarding, it's not hoarding just as saving money isn't hoarding. Warning after warning was posted on the three forums I frequent, and some adhered to the warnings and others didn't. The ones that were smart, have primers, and the ones that naysayed the warnings don't. It's really so simple even a 10 year old could comprehend the concept.
Next, people better look at the price of rimfire, it's escalating at an alarming rate! I plan on stocking up on as much of my favorite rimfire before the first of the year. By doing that I will save on the yearly price increase of the ammo and the added increases on shipping and handling. But most important is the legislation regarding the UN Treaty on Small Arms. Clinton and the Obama machine are planning extreme draconian ammunition/gun laws along with this treaty that will put unlawful restrictions on American gun owners. Better think about that, it's coming, so you'd better buy now. This is not a prediction, it's going to happen, so be forewarned.
We all talk of government intrusion in our lives, and this thread has shown me how many people are actually ready for more of it. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Watch and read about what they are planning and what you can do to keep yourself and your family safe. Just so you won't misunderstand that statement, yourself and your family come first, you certainly don't feed the neighbor first and have none for your table. This is not a communist country yet and hopefully we as a country will get through Obama as we did with Carter. Other than that, buy, buy and buy somemore! Taxes on ammo, guns and all sporting equipment are on the horizon for huge increases. You could call it a luxury tax, something the government feels you don't need. Look what they did to the boating industry years ago when they imposed a 10% tax on the sale of boats. If that tax had not been repealed, we could of watched the boating industry go completely under, and it almost did!
Matt
Matt:
Did you actually READ my post? I agree with most of your political points. Though now you're sidetracking this thread again.
Just answer clearly and simply (without the political rhetoric) some questions:
If buying primers is no ones' business but the buyer and seller, why did you post in great detail YOUR purchases of primers?? On an open forum, one designed for discussion?
When you posted your declarations here, What did you expect the response would be?? ie. How did you think people would respond?
Why did YOU buy all those primers you didn't need- to save money, sell them at a profit or to defend democracy from the communists? You keep changing your justifications for your hoarding and I just want to narrow it down.
Thanks
John Kepler
11-19-2009, 05:12
Why did YOU buy all those primers you didn't need- to save money, sell them at a profit or to defend democracy from the communists? You keep changing your justifications for your hoarding and I just want to narrow it down.
Thanks
Does this even matter? He bought just as many primers as HE thought he needed and could afford....the reasons for that level of "need" is none of your (or my) business. All he is guilty of is having a different level of "need" than you and others think he should! You (and they) are just nosily minding other people's business, and that sir, is YOUR problem, not his!
Does this even matter? He bought just as many primers as HE thought he needed and could afford....the reasons for that level of "need" is none of your (or my) business. All he is guilty of is having a different level of "need" than you and others think he should! You (and they) are just nosily minding other people's business, and that sir, is YOUR problem, not his!
+1. Hey, what are you, the primer Czar?
Don
John Kepler
11-20-2009, 03:19
+1. Hey, what are you, the primer Czar?
Don
Nope! Just an American that's tired as hell of other people trying to tell me what's good for me! "Mandatory Altruism" is just another word for tyranny!
Matt Anthony
11-20-2009, 03:50
Nope! Just an American that's tired as hell of other people trying to tell me what's good for me! "Mandatory Altruism" is just another word for tyranny!
Thanks John Keplar, you seem to understand capitalism the way it's suppose to be interpeted. And you are also well read on tyranny!
I had attempted to reply to Big Mo's post and just decided I'd be better off just letting it go and calling it a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR
+1. Hey, what are you, the primer Czar?
Don
Nope! Just an American that's tired as hell of other people trying to tell me what's good for me! "Mandatory Altruism" is just another word for tyranny!
Hey John, my comment was directed at BigMo, not you. The "+1" indicates that I second your post.
Don
John:
I agree with you to a point. This has nothing to do with tyranny or anything else political though. Actually in alot of ways this has nothing to do with primers either.
I agree with you that Matt or anyone for that matter can and should do what they like. It shouldn't be anybodies business but their own. We agree.
But Matt chose, willingly and knowingly, to post his business on this forum. He did that all by himself--nobody made him do that, nobody spied on him and posted it. This forum is just that, an open forum for the exchange of ideas. And so why should he or anyone else (Me, you, USSR anybody) get upset when other people then reply to "his business?" He "opened the door" and then when people, yes including me, commented on it negatively, he got upset and seemed confused as to why he was criticized.
I don't know if you know this but my criticism of Matt started with an earlier post on the old site about the same thing. Right in the middle of this "primer scare" Matt posted in response to someone complaining about the shortage how he'd "bought 30,000 primers he didn't even need." And the way he explained it, he came off as arrogant and condescending. Of course, that drew some criticism. Among other things to boast about it to the very people hurt by it, was not in good taste. What he did was perfectly legal and fine. Buy what you want. But instead of realizing that by posting his business on an open forum, he opened himself up to those comments and opinions, He, like now, got his panties in a wad and attempted more and more bizarre reasons to justify his actions. He almost used the "Clinton excuse-- What does "is" mean?" by trying to argue what hoarding, saving and profit-taking mean... And using the third person, instead of saying I or me???
I do have a problem: Matt chose to post his business on this forum, got his feelings hurt when people posted negative replies about it, tried to come up with more and more goofy reasons to justify his actions (Instead of just realizing, like even I repeatedly point out, that what he did was perfectly fine and just saying so and leaving it as that.) Then he, almost to the point of hysterically, tries to silence the criticism. All because he just had to post his business on this forum.
That's closer to tyranny than anything I've posted about this. So I'll correct myself and say I guess this is about tyranny.
Matt Anthony
11-21-2009, 04:12
If I offended you or other reloaders, I apologize as my only intention was to let people know where to buy primers. I have always disclosed where I bought primers and for how much. Perhaps I should not of indicated how many I was buying and I probably gave out too much information. That won't happen again.
There still is the question as to why people didn't listen to the warnings and purchase primers when they were cheaper and much more plentiful. But, we can't tell people they were foolish or naysaying, that could hurt their self esteem, hurt their feelings and could cause distress in individuals that are sensitive to critizism.
So really BigMo, this has nothing to do with primers or the iffy shortage, it's about Matt Anthony and his bad behavior. So your complaint and others is because I bought primers and didn't need them right now and posted that. Then people got mad because I said I had bought a certain number of primers and then bragged about it. This made people mad! And then I went ballistic and acted poorly towards my fellow reloaders.
BigMo, you are right, I won't tell anyone again where to buy primers or powder on the web or any other source. I will completely keep it to myself and never help another person obtain these hard to get components. If you need primers, find them yourself.
BigMo, do you get mad at Warren Buffet? He continues to purchase Coca Cola stock at an alarming rate. He has never sold any of it, just continues to buy large blocks. Could he, within your definition insight, be hoarding Coca-Cola stock? Just a question. Have a great Thanksgiving.
Matt
Matt:
How many times do I have to say, "Post and say what ever you want on this forum. Go ahead. I don't care. Just don't get hurt if/when someone argues with you." If you want to call someone foolish or whatever, go ahead. Just don't get your feelings hurt if someone calls you an ass in return.
I've already explained what I think of your actions in the last post. I wouldn't call it bad behavior, instead you're immature. You keep changing your reasons for buying the primers and if you'll use them. But you certainly don't like dissent. You are more like a tyrant then anyone else here. That's just my opinion, but this is an open forum so I can say it.
What does W. Buffet have do with this? And why would I care what he does? If you're right, he could be buying the stocks for the dividend, or to attempt to gain a majority share in the company. (Have someone explain what those things are to you, I'm Not.) It's apples and oranges. What I do know about Buffet is that he realizes his actions are public knowledge. He doesn't get angry and stammer out all sorts of excuses if someone disagrees with him. He has more class than that.
BTW- you can use a dictionary if you want definitions of words, you don't have to listen to me.
Matt Anthony
11-22-2009, 02:38
BM:
I started to read your post and then I stopped to allow myself some space from this insanity. The problem is you don't like me, you don't like what I say and you only want an argument and you only want to keep the pot boiling. I apologized to you and that isn't enough, so screw it and screw you and your ignorant, offset, lopsided and twisted view of the business world.
I'm going to do what I do regardless of your opinion or beliefs and I certainly will be more careful in the future on how I word things and be more mindful of posters such as yourself. You seem to be fixed on the word hoard and I'm not sure what point you wish to make, and I'm not sure you even understand what hoard actually means! Furthermore, I won't surrender to your thought of mind nor do I care what the hell you think, you are impossible to deal with in a common sense scenerio and life's realities. You can't see the light at the end of the tunnel because you turned it off!
As I said in one of my last posts, I won't warn people anylonger nor will I tell anyone about where to buy anything! It's people like you that ruin forums, always digging about to unearth something you think is wrong when it's not wrong, it's you that is wrong. You must love to cause dissention, heart ache and trouble, you live it and grow by it and by many, considered to be a feeder of bad times. Go ahead and continue, but I won't be part of your destruction and I hope that someday you will see that there are other views in this world beside yours, open your eyes and listen, you may learn something that will be beneficial in future times.
You have now made it to my ignore list on this forum, so I will never have to hear from you again. Good-bye BM!
Matt
limazulu
11-24-2009, 09:33
BM:
I started to read your post ... screw you and your ignorant, offset, lopsided and twisted view of the business world.
Matt
I don't understand what you think is lopsided. For example: A business sells a hundred apples to a hundred customers a day for a buck an apple. Then the owner sees 110 customers in line for the apples so he raises the price to drive 10 of them away so the 100 customers still get their apples. But, the customers don't co-operate. The first customer seeing 110 customers in line panics and buys 25 apples instead of their usual 1 apple. The next customers does the same and now only a few customers have more apples then they needed and the rest don't have any.
The business has become lopsided not because of capitalism or business decisions but because of customer panic buying. Had more then 10 customers for those apples walked away and decided to buy another day instead of the first customer panic buying 25 apples then the price would have gone right back down again.
There's been panic buying during gasoline shortages that worsened the situation and there were even panic runs on banks that were so bad the government had to create the FDIC.
For some reason you don't agree that panic buying makes a shortage situation worse. Or perhaps that doesn't matter to you. But I think that's the point people have been trying to make to you, in their own way.
Matt Anthony
11-25-2009, 03:41
I have read many a post from you on the old forum, the Milsurp forum and now the new CSP. I respect your opinion and I certainly do not wish to go where no man has gone before in starting any new questions or explanations to this thread. However:
One of the reasons many of the online companies didn't have primers for a while and some still don't is not about panic buying so much from the public. As in any business, employee's, employee friends and relatives, and friends of the owner/owners always get first chance at merchandise when it hits the doors. Some have slowed that down by their backorder policy where you get in line and wait until more merchandise is available.
In the last month I have asked over 200 people at our range if they had primers and the answer from all of them is that they have all they need. I also heard last week a non-member asking where one could buy primers and he was told to shop at MidwayUSA.com, they seem to be able to get the brands others can't get and of course Widener's and Powdervalleyinc.com was mentioned.
The more I look at this so called primer shortage, the more I am inclined to believe that there never really was a primer shortage to begin with. The ones who did complain the most seemed to buy at gun shows and retail outlets. I wonder why they are still complaining when for the last 3 month's everyone could of bought Wolf primers for $25.50 per thousand at Powdervalleyinc.com or I believe $27.95 per thousand at Widener's. I bought many cases and everyone else I know did the same thing! And anyone that reloads in a serious way is really never out of primers, a serious reloader would never allow that.
So, looking at this shortage in that vein, I believe that there really wasn't a shortage, more of a dry spell for whatever reason and there could be many differing answers. What's astounding is the fact you could buy primers and people were complaining about hoarding, and they still continue to complain when you can buy them online. Some people not only don't listen and take personal responsibility for their future, but they continue to try and blame others for their short comings.
Was there a primer shortage, I'd have to say no! There was no primer shortage at all!
Matt
Dan In Indiana
11-25-2009, 05:07
Then why are my CCI #400 primers expected to be in stock at MidSouth next June?
John Kepler
11-25-2009, 06:04
The business has become lopsided not because of capitalism or business decisions but because of customer panic buying. Had more then 10 customers for those apples walked away and decided to buy another day instead of the first customer panic buying 25 apples then the price would have gone right back down again.
Lopsided? And as the guy selling the apples I should give a sh** about WHY a small group of people are buying ALL of my apples at my price?
Oh wait....I DON'T give a sh**, and as long as they keep doing it, I'm happier than a tornado in a trailer-park! I'm not a public charity, "All the traffic will bear!" as anything other than a definition of how Capitalism is SUPPOSED to work was a line written by an avowed Socialist (Frank Norris) with a radical Socialist/Communist agenda, and "equity" in a business is defined by "what's in it for me" or else the owner/manager is a fool! A pack of fools buying all my apples at my price just gets me just that much closer to that nice retirement condo I've had my eyes on in Boca Raton for the last 20 years but didn't think I could ever afford!
Failing to recognise these little truths is, I believe, what has Mr. Anthony's boxers in a such bunch!
limazulu
11-25-2009, 11:16
Lopsided? And as the guy selling the apples I should give a sh** about WHY a small group of people are buying ALL of my apples at my price?
Oh wait....I DON'T give a sh**, and as long as they keep doing it, I'm happier than a tornado in a trailer-park! ....
Failing to recognise these little truths is, I believe, what has Mr. Anthony's boxers in a such bunch!
A truth you have overlooked is the business owner can't make a living just selling a hundred apples. The owner needs all those customers coming to the store so they can buy other products as well. If most of them stop coming because they have to look elsewhere for their apples then the store owner loses a lot more of their business. And frankly, you should know better.
limazulu
11-25-2009, 11:28
I have read many a post from you on the old forum, the Milsurp forum and now the new CSP. I respect your opinion and I certainly do not wish to go where no man has gone before in starting any new questions or explanations to this thread. However: ...
Was there a primer shortage, I'd have to say no! There was no primer shortage at all!
Matt
I now see the light at the end of the tunnel. From your perspective that there isn't a shortage it made sense for you to say where you got primers and how many. Proving that if you could get that many from there so could anybody else.
If you'd have said that face-to-face I probably would have got it right a way but it's odd how a message can be taken so many different ways then the one intended.
Matt Anthony
11-26-2009, 03:19
That's right, there's only a shortage for those that didn't heed the warnings and act. For the rest of us, there never was a problem. You and Mr. Keplar understand, and probably many others who didn't post, only the people that complained didn't have a clue, and they kept the pot boiling not realizing that the problem was them, not me!
Lima, I still look everyday at 4 sites for primers. There was only a very short period where someone could not buy primers from either of the four, but you had to be on top of the supply and you had to be there when they showed stock. I just posted a few days ago that Bruno's shooting supplies had a shipment of Federal primers just show up, and the one's who act will have Federal primers. The one's who don't act will again see a shortage of Federal primers from that source when it's depleated. Then the complainers will shout "hoarder" again and the process will start all over again!
Isn't life fun, Sincerely,
Matt
John Kepler
11-26-2009, 07:12
A truth you have overlooked is the business owner can't make a living just selling a hundred apples. The owner needs all those customers coming to the store so they can buy other products as well. If most of them stop coming because they have to look elsewhere for their apples then the store owner loses a lot more of their business. And frankly, you should know better.
If I'm Fred's Fruit Co. with a diverse product-line.....you're right! If I'm Acme Apple Sales Inc. and that's all I sell, you're not! Also, even if I'm Fred's Fruit, and apples are the bulk of my sales and profit....I'm in the same boat as Acme Apple Sales! You know that too!
From Marketing 101:
Q: How do you plan on staying in business if you try and sell apples for $1 million a piece?
A: I only have to sell one!
slamfire
11-27-2009, 06:53
Guys just get out there and look at the information on the web.
Of course there is an ammunition and component shortage. We are in a war. The Army cannot produce enough ammunition for itself, so it has outsourced components, powder, production. The commercial ammunition sector is drastically smaller than it was during the Cold War, and the remaining suppliers are not eager to get into debt. If they add additional production, on their dime, and the war ends, they will be stuck with the mortgage payments. So they are running their current facilities at 100 % production and not rapidly expanding capacity.
Adding production is not like pouring water on a Chia plant. It takes years.
And yet, orders continue to come. Not just from the Army. Just look at the one order Winchester reported on its web page.
Guys, the military and homeland defense get first priority. When they award contracts the money and profit is guaranteed. I suspect they are just releasing enough components to keep a presence in the reloading market place.
Then the Obama election happens, gun owners freak and buy anything at any price.
And this did not happen yesterday. It has been recognized as a problem for years.
2003 Army not producing enough ammunition
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx
2005 Army recognized they had an Ammunition shortage
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2005/July/Pages/Pentagon_Taking3154.aspx
Number of Post Cold War ammunition manufacturers reduced, those still here are worried about what will happen when military orders stop.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-07-23-2938580624_x.htm
2006 National Defense Authorization act Directs Sec Army to add additional capacity.
Small caliber ammunition manufacturer qualification
The committee notes that Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) is and should remain the primary Department of the Army qualified manufacturer of small caliber ammunition for Department of Defense use. LCAAP is currently operating at 100 percent capacity for small caliber ammunition production and the current Department of the Army small caliber ammunition requirement is exceeding the domestic-based production rate. The committee believes that in order to alleviate any potential procurement shortfalls of small caliber ammunition due to wartime surge requirements and increased small caliber ammunition qualification training requirements above the maximum rate capability of LCAAP, a second-source, domestic-based manufacturer of small caliber ammunition is needed.
Therefore, the committee directs the Secretary of the Army to qualify and secure a second-source, domestic-based manufacturer of small caliber ammunition, exclusively for surge production requirements above the LCAAP capacity
Army paying for additional ammunition production facilities
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/us-ammo-shortage-gd-now-a-second-source-prime-as-it-delivers-guns-ammo-01120/
http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/News-Ammunition-High-Demand.aspx
4/7/2009 Ammunition in High Demand
Winchester Ammunition, like other ammunition manufacturers, has seen the demand for our products increase significantly since last fall. To meet that increased demand, our operations are running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Our team is literally working around the clock to make quality ammunition available for purchase. We remain absolutely committed to meeting the growing needs of our customers.
8/20/2009 Winchester Awarded Department of Homeland Security Contract
Winchester® Ammunition was recently awarded a contract by the Immigration, Customs and Enforcement (ICE) division of the Department of Homeland Security to supply a maximum of 200 million, 40 cal. rounds over the next five years.
John:
Your arguments about the free market etc are interesting and I agree. The thing is that this isn't about all that. Matt isn't selling the primers he has. If he was, we could leave it at that, like any free market system, he sold them at what he could get for them.
Instead he's attempting to use all sorts of excuses for his actions. He bought 30,000 primers he didn't need at the beginning of a primer shortage. One of them being all this free market stuff. The latest are: the employees did it, people were just slow and there wasn't a shortage to begin with.
Matt is right on one thing: things are becoming more readily available again now. Companies that were completely out of alot of products are keeping more in stock and in greater numbers.
Matt: What gun club do you belong to? A website or phone number would be great. I want to verify that you are a member and there are more than 200 members for you to contact. Thanks!
Dan In Indiana
12-17-2009, 03:13
Some CCI#450 primers hit the driveway today [5k], and just got through ordering some CCI#400 [5k] from Natchez Shooters Supply. Had an e-mail notice request in, did not receive any yet for the 400's, just happened to check the site, and bingo.
Dan In Indiana
12-25-2009, 07:09
http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2009/03-March/26-Mar-2009/FBO-01776755.htm
http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2009/08-August/14-Aug-2009/FBO-01909185.htm
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