Krag Cadet

[kurtflys]

Is there such a thing as a Cadet Krag?

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes. It is like a late production M1892, rod under barrel, curved butt w/o trap, 1896 sight, no swivels and uses a band spring instead of a pin. 404 made, 398 converted to standard M1896 Rifle (they have a band spring filler). Of the six not converted, 3 or 4 are in private collections, others not accounted for. At least one, and possibly a couple more were made up for government museums.

The precise serial number range has not been determined; 17-18xxx, 24xxx ranges suspected. The museum "build-ups" were in the 35-37xxx range, which is definitely known to NOT be that of the originals. Probably a $25,000 (or worse) purchase. At best, there MIGHT be one (1) virgin out there. Watch out for fakes!!!!

[kurtflys]

Do you have one? Any pictures?

[Dick Hosmer]

No, I do not own one. As for Cadet pictures, just go to my webpage (see my profile).

[kurtflys]

Thanks Dick
I thought you would know the answer.. For us mortals,, well we will never see one. But one can hope.
Thanks Kurt

[Mark Daiute]

I'm glad this came up. One of the owners at my gun store has a Krag "Cadet". I thought he was full of it. Next time I go there I'm going to get all the stats and maybe photos as well.

[madsenshooter]

This is a photo of what was maybe, once a cadet rifle. It appears to be an example that someone numbered the changes made to convert a cadet to 1896 service rifle configuration. Note the serial #, this rifle was made before there was even correspondence between Mordacai and the Commandant of the Academy. I feel the cadet rifles were made about the same time as the 1896 carbines, with 1895 receivers. I can't imagine the Academy willingly accepting some marked 1894 and some 1895, and museum pieces marked 1896. They were such sticklers for detail the Commandant even insisted they be known as Cadet Model 1896 rifles.

And now the rest of the story. I spied this example being sold for $1000, and was stupid enough to blab it here on the old forum. Some low life jumped on the phone and tried to buy it, but I don't think he managed once I told the seller what it "might" be. Or if he did buy it, I bet he didn't get it for $1000! I keep forgetting emails are not IM's! Worst of all, I knew it was there for about a year, but it took awhile for it to dawn on me that it could really be a Cadet, and not just a 92 in a Cadet stock. I was heartsick for 2 wks or more knowing that I'd missed the gun of a lifetime. There were many later prominent Cadets at West Point during the service time of these rifles, chief among them, Douglas MacArthur.

A lot of people refer to school guns as Cadet rifles. Those used at West Point were full sized rifles.

[kurtflys]

Where is the gun now?

[madsenshooter]

Probably in some well monied collector type's collection. Like I said, I don't think the rifle in the stock is truly a Cadet. I think those rifles were put in model 96 type stocks while the Cadet stocks were having the cleaning rod channels and other modifications done. After they were finished I believe the stocks were used to rebuild other model 92 rifles such as the one pictured. I have nothing to go on here, just doesn't make sense to have the rifles sitting around while the stocks are modified. I believe the true Cadet rifles are the rarely encountered full length rifles with 1895 receivers. Dick has one, as does 5MF.

[kurtflys]

I went, I saw, I'm impressed. Nice collection and nice pictures. Did you take them?
Regards Kurt

[Dick Hosmer]

"I believe the true Cadet rifles are the rarely encountered full length rifles with 1895 receivers. Dick has one, as does 5MF."

I truly do not know. Since first reading Mallory, in 1980, I have understood that "rifles with 1895 receivers are (supposed to be) very scarce". Whether they are the cadets or not, I have no clue. 5MF thinks the one in Gunderson's photo IS a Cadet. He has accumulated a TON of reference material - some of which he says Mallory and Brophy did NOT see - including some (apparently quite a few) serial numbers. He is playing it tight right now, but says he plans to publish within ten years. BTW, I visited him in Wisconsin this summer, for the better part of a day. He definitely marches to his own drum - but the guy is probably a true genius.

My 1895 "rifle" (I say that only because the scrap of barrel that came with it is longer than 22") would need a LOT of work to even make it LOOK like a Cadet, and involve cutting up quite a bit of good stuff to do so. Probably not going to happen. I'm just sitting on it (number is 24434) to see what info comes out - but it will probaby become someone else's project. On the other hand, my "new" 26" barrel rifle IS a viable candidate for restoration, and I'm excited about it, because it WAS once real - no maybes.

Am STILL sorry for you about that deal. If you did get sniped, it has NEVER surfaced, to my knowledge. The seller is supposed to be - as I remember telling you at the time - a square shooter. However - your sad experience WAS in my mind when I did NOT call out the 26" until I had it nailed.

[madsenshooter]

So is 24434 in a thin wrist stock or a 96 type? Of course that's not really a telling thing, could've been changed over the years. We'll probably never know what truly happened to my cadet, had I not been specifically looking for a 1901 made receiver, you might not have gotten the BOF. I had it on my watch list and if the 1901 cartouched stock would have sold, that's where the money would have went. The stock did finally sell, but too late.

[Dick Hosmer]

"I went, I saw, I'm impressed. Nice collection and nice pictures. Did you take them?"

Thanks Kurt, yes I did take all of the pictures. Some of the rifles are probably not up to your quality standards, but, there are some pretty scarce items there. I plan to do a lot more pictures this winter (but then, I say that every winter!). Have a bunch of new additions, since last major photo session in 2005:

1866 Short Rifle (a real one)
1867 Cadet (not as nice as yours)
1870 Springfield-Remington trials rifle
1881 Long-Range Rifle (with Sharps sights)
1888 Positive Cam Rifle
1898 26" barrel Krag
1898 .22 cal. Krag GP rifle

[kurtflys]

Thats great. Can you tell me what camera you use? And do you know how they installed the stacking swivals and sling swival loops in the barrel bands. I mean they are pin in but how did the bend them?
Thanks Kurt

[Dick Hosmer]

Kurt: I used an Olympus 5050 (five MP) for most. I had been using an older 1MP Olympus, which is still fine for closeups. For overall shots, where 80% of the picture is cropped, a 1MP just doesn't have the detail - of course, no one uses them any more, anyhow, since you can now buy a 12MP for half the price the 5MP was a couple of years ago. The camera isn't the "hard" part - the real work is in the setup, so as to have invisible support and uniform lighting. My pics are way better than snapshots, but nowhere NEAR what is possible. Whole books have been written on technical photography.

Madsen: 24434 came in a cut 1896 stock, only about 1/4" left ahead of band. Has pin, no sign of filled band spring. Cartouche is absolutely illegible. I paid next to nothing for it - do not even remember now why, unless it was because of Mallory's comment. Re the BOF: guess I got lucky - and sorry it was at your expense. But, since you were just looking for "parts" (and, as you said in a prior post, were not thinking BOF) at what point would you have come to realize what you had snagged? Would you have researched it, or MIGHT you have just taken the receiver for your project and sold off the barrel? Be honest, now. :-)

[madsenshooter]

I may have never thought BOF, unless I posted something about the acquisition here and had you tell me. If I had got it in hand to look at, I may have realized what it was before disassembling it. Your good fortune wasn't at my expense at all Dick. I did note the 26" barrel from the beginning, but something about the pic, the front sight looked funny to me, too close to the end of the barrel I thought. That made me think it was cutoff to that length. I sorta figured 24434 would be in a 96 stock, could be as I surmised, that they put the cadets into 96 stocks, I think the 1895 marked rifle 5MF bought off gunbroker is in a 96 stock also. Or it could be they ran out of thin wrist stocks, though my 22018 has the thin wrist. Mallory thought the cadets were all 1895 receivers too. Guess I'll just have to wait for 5's revelation.