View Full Version : Slightly Off-Topic Mills Type Belt Question
I bought a Mills belt last week from a photograph and thought it was was 45 round NG belt. As it turns out the I was wrong because the belt is about a 2/3 scale copy. I'm guessing it is a hunting belt but I wanted to see if anybody knew more what it is. The belt is 2" wide and has 45 woven in loops. No Mills marking or patent dates. It has 4 brass groments on each side at the bottom. The loops are small. The picture below show .30-30 Winchester cartridges loaded in it. The metal keepers are steel not brass. The belt end-to-end is about 40" if you undid the keepers. I really don't have anything more period to try in the loops that .30-30 rounds. Any ideas what it is, the period, and kinda what it's worth? Thanks in advance!
John Sukey
08-22-2011, 01:13
How about 30-40 Krag? The Mills belt was still around for the Spanish-American war.
Dick Hosmer
08-22-2011, 08:28
Belts are NOT my area of expertise - I have a few, of course, as adjuncts to my rifles, but that is it.
I'm immediately struck by the 2/3 comment, and the fact that the .30-30s look to be a fairly snug fit. The military belts of the period - if for the US market - would take .30-40, which is somewhat fatter. Some (the double-loop 100 rounders won't) late belts will take .45-70 also. Of course, there were many earlier belts which were .45-70 exclusively, even some in .50-70, but they were considerably wider. So, my GUESS is that it is probably commercial.
NOW, we need an expert! :-)
Given the width of the belt might be for pistol cartridges ie. .45 Colt. I have never found a good source of info on Mills web belts.There are a lot of odd ones out there.
John Sukey
08-22-2011, 12:50
Col. Anson Mills 5th U.S. Cavalry stationed at Ft. Lowell Arizona Territory.
I have read the Mills Company was an English firm. Is this incorrect?
I posted a similar question here about a month ago and was told my belt was probably made by Spaulding (same company as to-day??) The ends are finished with a strip of leather and it has brass keepers. I have always found it is very difficult to get even the correct rounds in the loops unless thay have cart. in them, they seem to shrink over time if not used. Mine is full size but lighter weight webbing then Mills.
5MadFarmers
08-22-2011, 03:13
Mills was, as John mentioned, an officer in the US Army. Congress is kind of funny about people developing stuff while on government time and then selling it to the government so Mills put his company in his brother-in-law's name. The Brits adopted the Mills equipment and Mills set up shop in England also. Mills eventually folded in the US (1920s) but the English arm survived into the 1970s.
I don't think it's a Spaulding. To the best of my knowledge only Mills and Russell had the ability to weave the loops integrated into the belt.
In addition to military contracts the belts were sold commercially, one with a dog's head is very common, with Winchester being their first big private contract.
Likely Mills. Likely commercial.
Thanks for all the help. When I called it a hunting belt I meant commercial hunting belt not a military issue. I need to try some other cartridges to see what fits. I would think hat if it were a Mills belt it would be marked somehow. Is there a good web site about commercial belts?
5MadFarmers
08-22-2011, 07:13
I would think hat if it were a Mills belt it would be marked somehow.
It's possible it's missing the ends.
Is there a good web site about commercial belts?
Not that I'm aware of.
It has 4 brass groments on each side at the bottom.
I have a Mills belt as sold by Winchester. It has grommets with hooks in them. For hanging game.
I've tried some more cartridges with anything bigger than a .38 special not fitting. A .30-40 will not fit and neither will a .45 colt or a .38-40. A .38 special is too short but fits snug. A .32-20 is a little loose. I'm not an expert on older lever action cartridges. I'm looking for one of the smaller Mills buckles to see what those dimensions are. This one has a C-type closure but a nice brass buckle would look nice. IThis will work nicely with my early 1900's Remington Model 8 in .30 Remington. Those fit also. Thanks for all the ideas!
5MadFarmers
08-23-2011, 04:58
This will work nicely with my early 1900's Remington Model 8 in .30 Remington. Those fit also.
While you have the right case size that is in fact the wrong caliber.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/100/rem.jpg
".32 Remington" was the correct answer. They're cute.
Mills belts made before 1895 had sewn or leather reinforced ends,after that they had the brass ends.S&S Firearms used to carry several repro Mills buckles for both the pistol and rifle belt including the "dogs head" ones.
Nice Remington 5mf but I prefer my .401 Winchester.:hello:
5MadFarmers
08-23-2011, 07:52
Mills belts made before 1895 had sewn or leather reinforced ends
Who say dat? Ronald Reagan dat.
Ronald was quite quotable. At work we have certain sayings and we all understand them. When I ask somebody a question and they tell me the answer I'll often tell them "Ronald Reagan that." Aw yes, "Trust, but Verify!"
So who say dat? While my battlestar isn't quite fully functional yet it's getting rather useful.
399915 12/15/88 03/19/89 Mills, Anson US Army FASTENING FOR CARTRIDGE AND OTHER BELTS Dick, Ewell A. Aughinbaugh, Will E.
399916 12/15/88 03/19/89 Mills, Anson US Army BELT FOR HOLDING CARTRIDGES AND CARTRIDGE-MAGAZINES Dick, Ewell A. Aughinbaugh, Will E.
Both of those Mills patents show metal ends.
Mills belts made before 1895 had sewn or leather reinforced ends
So who say dat? Ronald Reagan dat!
Dick Hosmer
08-23-2011, 09:00
Was that a gotcha involving the Model 8 versus the later Model 81, or did you honestly think he'd made a mistake about caliber?
There were four calibers in the autoloading Remington proprietary series: .25, .30, .32, and .35. The latter was probably the most common. For some reason, at least out here, they were very popular with hunters of Italian and Portuguese ancestry. The Model 81 was also made in .300 Savage - I owned one briefly.
5MadFarmers
08-23-2011, 09:41
Yes I think he made a mistake in the caliber. Everyone knows that the .25, .30, and .35 are the incorrect caliber as I don't have one of those. :)
There were two different .25 calibers. The first "odd" one I encountered was after a guy in PA blew one up. The second example was at a local auction. I debated buying it but decided against it. With 2 known examples they must not have made many. Similar to the .30-03 vs .30-06 kind of thing. The first .25 was superseded by a later one for some reason. Maybe I should have bought that one.
No, I didn't think he made a mistake. That was a joke. I think .35 would be the best choice as the ammo is more available. .32 is downright hard to find. They're making it from .30 brass. I'm partial to .32 as I have one. Which makes it the correct caliber.
The Model 81 is a poor follow-on to the Model 8. Why poor? Because I don't have one of those either of course.....
Who say dat? Ronald Reagan dat.
Ronald was quite quotable. At work we have certain sayings and we all understand them. When I ask somebody a question and they tell me the answer I'll often tell them "Ronald Reagan that." Aw yes, "Trust, but Verify!"
So who say dat? While my battlestar isn't quite fully functional yet it's getting rather useful.
399915 12/15/88 03/19/89 Mills, Anson US Army FASTENING FOR CARTRIDGE AND OTHER BELTS Dick, Ewell A. Aughinbaugh, Will E.
399916 12/15/88 03/19/89 Mills, Anson US Army BELT FOR HOLDING CARTRIDGES AND CARTRIDGE-MAGAZINES Dick, Ewell A. Aughinbaugh, Will E.
Both of those Mills patents show metal ends.
So who say dat? Ronald Reagan dat!
It's discussed and belts showing both features in Farrington's book Arming & Equipping the Cavalry.Pictures on page 542,text on .38 revolver belts starts on page 541.The belts he refences the differences in are circa 1893-no metal ends and circa 1895-with metal ends.There are some reprints of Mills catalogs but I haven't found any pre 1900 as yet.Here's a link with some decent pictures and a little discussion http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114049 Some very serious Mills collectors on that forum.:icon_bounce:
For obsolete ammo for those cull rifles try Buffalo Arms.
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 05:09
Fee, Fie, Foo, Fum, I smell the book of an Englishman. He's English. Why do I think he was down at the pub, playing snooker on the billiards table, when he said to his chum "I'll confuse the Yanks. I'll assert there were no metal ends until 1895."
I guess I'd ask him but last I heard he'd located the fuselage of an UH-1 in England. Renting an industrial crane he's going to lower it to the ground for action photos of Ia Drang. The only delay was funding for enough rubber palm trees and finding a Robert Duvall lookalike. "I love the smell of Glouchestershire in the morning."
I shouldn't start rumors like that, people will get apoplectic now.
Those two Mills patents clearly have the typical Mills metal ends. They pre-date 1895 by a number of years. They'll have to be addressed.
I might come across something but it won't be until 2013 for that pile. Maybe 2014.
Dick Hosmer
08-24-2011, 08:07
Play nice, Joe.
Dusan is a researcher of YOUR caliber, and HE has to do it from Jolly Olde.
Kinda like that old joke about Ginger Rogers being a better dancer than Fred Astaire, because she duplicated his every move - but did them backwards, on high heels!
Fee, Fie, Foo, Fum, I smell the book of an Englishman. He's English. Why do I think he was down at the pub, playing snooker on the billiards table, when he said to his chum "I'll confuse the Yanks. I'll assert there were no metal ends until 1895."
I guess I'd ask him but last I heard he'd located the fuselage of an UH-1 in England. Renting an industrial crane he's going to lower it to the ground for action photos of Ia Drang. The only delay was funding for enough rubber palm trees and finding a Robert Duvall lookalike. "I love the smell of Glouchestershire in the morning."
I shouldn't start rumors like that, people will get apoplectic now.
Those two Mills patents clearly have the typical Mills metal ends. They pre-date 1895 by a number of years. They'll have to be addressed.
I might come across something but it won't be until 2013 for that pile. Maybe 2014.
LOL Whatever.:icon_rolleyes:
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 09:27
Play nice, Joe.
Dusan is a researcher of YOUR caliber, and HE has to do it from Jolly Olde.
Kinda like that old joke about Ginger Rogers being a better dancer than Fred Astaire, because she duplicated his every move - but did them backwards, on high heels!
I know. I can go to the archives whereas he gets to fight with archivists. Dusan is really good. Which is why getting poked at likely won't bug him. Most of what I know about Mills came from Dusan.
The level of research required to pin down situations like those ends is different. Some authors simply don't do the work. That's different from the information simply not existing. If Dusan misses something it'll be that latter instead of the former.
When the information simply doesn't exist I synthesize it. Synthesizing data is difficult but possible in the majority of cases. On these I've not reached that point as I've not completed the strip mining. As mentioned it'll take a couple of years before I get to that. The odds that it can be resolved run to about 80%. I know there is Mills information in there as sampling the data turned up useful documentation on Mills belts.
The data simply wasn't available and thus not considered. That will change when I get to those frames. Fab reports first, correspondence after that. The Mills information is correspondence. RIA sent Mills belts back for being defective with some frequency. Normally it was the incorrect number of loops. One letter listing missing rivets is all it will take. Absent that a mention of working on those ends would do it. Under letters to contractors there might be an order for rivets to replace ones pulled when the belts were IRANed. The possibilities are multiple. Just takes time to digest it all.
Wonder if older belts sans ends were redone at a later date as they were turned in for repair or replacement?
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 10:07
Possible. If so there will likely be something there.
The fab reels will be done in November me thinks. Letters will take longer as there are multiple series. Even longer as I can't have the girls digitize those for me - they're handwritten so I must process those myself.
They altered a lot of stuff. Normally there is good documentation when that was done. Anything outside of the ordinary generated a flurry of letters to ensure everyone was on the same page. This is true up until the blueprints take over and that's later. Early 1900s. The biggest problem is the letters from the "other party" don't exist. It's like listening to one side of a phone conversation. How it worked is completely different from what is expected. A lot of custom fabrication. A lot of old pattern stuff being made on demand. "I don't like the new spurs, make me a pair of the old pattern." We are used to dealing with later stuff, stuff off assembly lines, and expect standards. They employed craftsmen and could make whatever you wanted. And did.
When I've finished mining that place I'll be giving them a copy of the frames. Future researchers can either deal with my photos or hit the tape again. Given it's fading I wish them well. Much was faded to solid black before the photos were taken in the 1970s. Fading continues on the film. After the books are out I'll give them the indexes also. The indexes will have much value as they contain synthesized information on the unreadable frames.
I'm not ready to process Mills belts yet. Rushing the data isn't useful. I'm still missing a lot of context and will need that before I do those. In other words I need to have more general knowledge to recognize the gems for what they are. Until yesterday I'd have not understood the significance of a letter to Mills about metal ends dated 1893. Now I would. I need that kind of knowledge before I hit those frames as I won't be doing them twice.
Mills equipment information is almost non-existent beyond some of the military items and a lot of that seems to be educated guesses like this item being discussed http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113017 The commercial items like the shotgun belts for Winchester is unexplored territory for the most part.Not a whole lot of information out there beyond a few catalog reprints and none of them seem to be before 1900
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 02:21
Outside discussion. People don't like discussing stuff on boards as people don't like contentious discussion. Mills Belts. I hate forcing data. Absolutely loathe it. Bad results come from forcing data. Regardless I'm going to force some on this. "Mills from before 1895 don't have metal ends."
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/mills_pat1.png
Metal ends. Notice the patent date. Also note the metal hooks on the end.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/mills_pat2.png
He filed them together based on the date. Also has metal ends. Also has those hooks.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/orndorff_1893.png
Military business was slow in starting. Commercial belts is how they really started. This is an ad from 1893. It's a shotgun belt with the "thimbles" being finished on the bottom. Notice the two color stripes.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/orndorff_shotgun.png
Said belt. Mine. Notice the metal ends, twin stripes, finished bottoms, and those interesting hooks on the end.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/ends.png
Military belt with hooks and metal ends.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/finish_end.png
A Mills belt with no metal ends. Notice that the top and bottom are thicker? The top and bottom simply have more material. What about the end? Is it cleanly finished in a similar fashion to the top and bottom? No. I'd say this belt was cut.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/finish_end_tan.png
Look at the end. This is OP's belt. Notice the material issue? I'd say it's not finished. I'd say it's cut.
______________________________________
I don't believe that metal ends don't predate 1895. I don't believe that at all. I've Ronald Reagan'd dat. Forced data but the picture is useful. Does this mean there are no pre-1895 belts without metal ends? No. What it means is "no metal ends before 1895" doesn't hold water.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/finish_end.png
A Mills belt with no metal ends. Notice that the top and bottom are thicker? The top and bottom simply have more material. What about the end? Is it cleanly finished in a similar fashion to the top and bottom? No. I'd say this belt was cut.
http://www.5madfarmers.com/mills/finish_end_tan.png
Look at the end. This is OP's belt. Notice the material issue? I'd say it's not finished. I'd say it's cut.
______________________________________
I don't believe that metal ends don't predate 1895. I don't believe that at all. I've Ronald Reagan'd dat. Forced data but the picture is useful. Does this mean there are no pre-1895 belts without metal ends? No. What it means is "no metal ends before 1895" doesn't hold water.[/QUOTE]
I wondered about that blue belt when I saw the pictures of it. I'd like to see clearer pictures of the ends on the OPs belt.I dug my Mill's shotgun belt out,it's a newer manufacture than the one you picture and uses a different Mills Patent end.What I notice on commercial belts vs the military ones is the webbing isn't as heavy.
To make my remark about no metal ends referencing Farrington a little clearer it was in reference to the OPs question about what period was his belt from.It's most likely a pistol belt,Farrington's remarks about the dates on having or not having metal ends was in reference to a particular pistol belt not the entire production of the Mill's factory since creation to date.:icon_lol: I wonder if metal ends were adated from commercial production to the military contracts or vice versa?Or was it designed because of problems the military encountered with belts with the reinforcing sewn in at the end.LOL This thread sure got highjacked.
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 04:44
This thread sure got highjacked.
Oddly I think we're completely on topic as we're discussing the technology/period features that help ID his belt. He asked if there was a site which covered the non-military belts and, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't. We seem to be creating it upon request. So Burger King'ing it in addition to Reagan'ing it.
To make my remark about no metal ends referencing Farrington a little clearer it was in reference to the OPs question about what period was his belt from.
Brophy? I respect. Poyer? Don't care for his work. Dorsey's work on belts? I have one of his book and I'm not impressed. IMHO Dusan knows a lot more about them. He knows a lot more about them than I do. What I know about trapdoors came from Dick. What I know about Mills belts came from Dusan. Except I'm kind of a slacker at following the expected path and people find that frustrating. I circle around in an odd route. I get there in the end but the path is peculiar. Dusan has done very solid work on these. What is missing here, and I'm aware of it, is me reading his book in detail instead of dealing with an interpretation of it. No offense to you but sometimes people read things differently. Sometimes what we are thinking doesn't translate well into text. I ran into that last night myself in a letter to a guy. I knew what I meant but the wife, upon proof reading it, didn't understand what I was conveying. The thing is, for me, I'm not ready to deal with Mills belts yet. I have to finish the mining and then synthesize what's missing. Then I'll be ready.
I wondered about that blue belt when I saw the pictures of it. I'd like to see clearer pictures of the ends on the OPs belt.I dug my Mill's shotgun belt out,it's a newer manufacture than the one you picture and uses a different Mills Patent end.What I notice on commercial belts vs the military ones is the webbing isn't as heavy.
I'm not being my normal "contraire" self when I say that looking at that blue belt again I'm beginning to think it is finished. The upper corner seems to indicate that. A sample size of 1 isn't helpful maybe.
Not enough data. That Mills was making belts with metal ends in 1893 is indicated by the shotgun belt. That the metal ends exist is indicated by the patent. So why some would have it and some might not isn't something I know. I simply don't have enough data. Rock Island didn't receive finished Cavalry belts from what I see. They received loop belts and then sewed the pistol loops on. I don't know that they did it that way during all of production but that they did that is very clear from the sampling I took. Is it possible they received some with metal ends for Infantry use and some without end for Cavalry? Maybe the process of sewing those loops on was easier sans ends. I'm speculating. Poorly. Just to bring up the point that we're in Rumsfeld territory. There are things we know and then there is the unknowable.
So the ends issue isn't resolved. I don't believe we can say "they all had metal ends" or "they didn't have metal ends." A mix is possible. I think I have perhaps 10 loops belts. All with ends. None with pistol loops. If I had more experience on Mills belts the next thing I'd check is to see if the ones sans metal ends have saber hangers/pistol loops. It would be the next thing to eliminate.
For the purposes of OP's search, the most significant bit is perhaps in that 1893 ad. They'd make it in any caliber for $1. So it could very well be in any caliber.
I don't know. I'll know more in a few years. Might not have the answer to this but I'll know more and will be able to make better guesses.
A subject that has come up a lot when collector friends get together is the subject of available reference books.Brophy is over 20 years old,Dorsey's books are 15 or older,Farrington's book is one of the newer at 7 years old.Poyer.......well,they have a lot of pictures.Might not be IDed right but it's a picture.I sometimes take the Krag or Trapdoor book to shows or auctions,they don't weigh as much.If I think it's something I want I'll look elsewhere.
Sometimes it takes somewho who can't see something to make someone who can see it look. The original belt has three holes on each end as shown below. I'm sorry the photo is a little out of focus. My take from this is it had metals ends with three rivets. Early in it's life the owner removed the metal ends because there is no trace except for the holes. Therefore, post 1895.
I don't think this thread got off topic at all. I asked for an education on Mills-type belts and I have learned a lot. Thanks for eveybody's time and continue to discuss.
Sometimes it takes somewho who can't see something to make someone who can see it look. The original belt has three holes on each end as shown below. I'm sorry the photo is a little out of focus. My take from this is it had metals ends with three rivets. Early in it's life the owner removed the metal ends because there is no trace except for the holes. Therefore, post 1895.
I don't think this thread got off topic at all. I asked for an education on Mills-type belts and I have learned a lot. Thanks for eveybody's time and continue to discuss.
Thanks for posting back with the picture and info.Another piece of the puzzle,I have a shotgun belt,it has the ends from the Mill's Apr.18,1905 patent.Interesting,the Mills trademark on this one is Mills in a rimless bottleneck cartridge.Wonder how the trademark changed in different periods?:icon_study:
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 05:56
Thanks for posting back with the picture and info.Another piece of the puzzle,I have a shotgun belt,it has the ends from the Mill's Apr.18,1905 patent.Interesting,the Mills trademark on this one is Mills in a rimless bottleneck cartridge.Wonder how the trademark changed in different periods?:icon_study:
That bit I know. Mills retired in 1897. The Spanish American war was the real take-off in production. In 1900 he gave two Canadian regiments, on the way to the Boer party, belts and that led to the adoption of the belts by the Brits. In 1905 he sold the company. Frank Batchelder bought it and renamed it to the "Mills Woven Cartridge Belt Company." The logo change would be at that time.
Mills wrote a book and it's a must read. As a bonus it has nice drawings in it.
Mills wrote a book and it's a must read. As a bonus it has nice drawings in it.
What's the title?(LOL Another book to buy,just what I need.:icon_bounce:)
5MadFarmers
08-24-2011, 07:04
http://books.google.com/books?id=jRBRuZO2LjoC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Just saw this thread talking about metal ends and when they came out.
Metal ends are on the Remington Lee Mills belt pa.t date 1889 I have, Ray
5MadFarmers
09-04-2011, 01:11
Stop that!
It's not bad enough that you have the belt, which is impossible to find, but 4 clips for it? Along with the gun? Ray, you are one short drive away and I can have the truck's bed emptied in short order.
On topic that date is contemporary with the referenced patents. It's Navy though so perhaps the army was just being weird. Three rivets instead of four. I've not spent time on them enough yet but there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to that.
Just kidding on telling you to stop. Very nice belt. Nice and impossible to find. That's without getting into those clips. Do you have an example of the straight-pull ensemble also?
5MF, I bought the belt with the intent of buying the rifle to go with it but this Win Navy Lee came along then and of course I then concentrated on getting the equipment for that, the bayonet, belt, and the super scarce sling and then another gun came along and another, well you know how you can get distracted with so many guns out there, LOL. One day I will look for a nice Rem Lee to go with the belt. By the way, the Win Lee belt, even thought it was made after the Rem Lee belt, still doesn't have the metal ends,
PS only one of the Rem Lee magazines, (photo), is the earlier one, the other three are later Rem Mags, Ray
5MadFarmers
09-04-2011, 07:28
Sadly about a week or two ago I was dumb and let the proper meat can for that straight pull go.[1] It was poorly listed in the WW2 area. I bid what I wanted to pay instead of what I was willing. So it goes. Given that I don't have the rifle, cartridge belt, sling, bayonet, haversack, well given the fact that I don't have any of it I guess I still have a consistent set.
The proper sling. That takes work. Very nice set. Christmas is coming and, well, my address is easy enough to find.
I think you'll find that third patent date lines up with 304008. J. Henry Krug of Ilion - assigned to Remington. The other 3 patents are in the other table and that means they're likely Lee and the other usual suspects. I'll have the tables complete and merged by Christmas and then I'll know.
The Navy and Army Lees I have. Bid on a couple of straight pulls but so far no go. Time will cure that.
That tan belt is the bomb. Really.
[1] Marked for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. The army ones I'm swimming in. The Marine ones are hard to find and I'll be bruised for weeks from the kick I gave myself.
I just lucked out on getting the Win Lee sling. I had saw one in a dealers catalog with a $2,200 price tag on it but I called the dealer thinking he made a mistake in the price by a one too many zeros. He said no mistake and the sling was already sold and he had sold one earlier for more money. Well anyway just for the heck of it I advertised in the want ads on line for one figuring I would never get a response being they are so scarce, but a month later I received a reply to my ad of one for sale. These slings are the same slings Win put on the their Win 95 lever muskets so they are a very desirable sling both for the Win Lee Navy and the Win 95 muskets, including the Russian contract ones. The price I paid was not cheap but about a third of what the other two sold for. Here's some photos of it for future info just in case you stumble on one for $50 and wonder if you should buy it, :icon_rolleyes:. Check out the Win star inspector/proof stamp. Ray
5MadFarmers
09-05-2011, 07:38
Two roller buckles and the star. Good ID points. I'd think very few people will bump into those in the wild.
Thanks for sharing the pictures and info.:hello:
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