WTK: DOES anyone buy JAP rifles with the Mums grounded?

[danco101]

Is ther any value to these rifles that have the Mums defaced? other than a source for parts, if so who buys them?

[Guamsst]

Absolutely, considering how many of them have ground mums, it really doesn't effect sellability. Dollar for Dollar people will take a mum over a ground mum all things being equal. But, the Mum does not substantially raise the value. I usually add about $25-$50 for mummed rifles depending on rarity/condition. Remember, the vast majority of Jap rifles have the mum ground. It is just part of their history.

A serious collector will buy them if they need an example of that rifle or the price is right. A Novice will buy them just to get a Jap rifle. Only the most jaded collector will turn it down based only on the mum. Well, them and a few guys who like to pretend they were going to buy the gun just so they can let you know what a "Serious" collector they are.

[dave]

I do not know the pertentage but would guess that 80% or more have ground mum's, my experiance. I own only 6 jap rifles, just represenative commen examples, only one has a mum. Around here they will ask 100 or more for a mum, above a fair rifle price. Not worth it to me, I collect M-98 Mauser militaries and have the japs cause they are a mauser variation.

[Guamsst]

Not sure how you figure they are a Mauser variation but some people take the term more specifically than others. Maybe a topic for a new thread.

80% may be a low figure but it can't be too far off. I have more of these than I can remember but only a few mums. I'd like to say 90% but I may be a little high.

People ask allot and don't usually get it. If they sold regularly for $100 more then that's how I would value them. Price whatever you want but my experience is that people will only pay about $50 more. Except for more rare examples. I think the collectors guide says add 25% which is about right on a $200 rifle.

[dave]

A Mauser M-98 action is a one piece bolt, two front lock lugs, saftey lug, the staggered box magazine, force feed claw extractor, large ring, cock on open design. Also the stripper clips. Not all these feature appeared all at once but the 98 model was the final 'ultimate' Mauser design. The Jap is a direct copy of the action except for the internals of the bolt. The US '03 is also a Mauser copy altho of the earlier 93-95 action, small ring reciever. That is why we paid Mauser 200,000 for patent infrigement and a couple pennies apiece for clips. Don't know if the japs paid or not, never heard they did. The 1917 is also a Mauser copy. And most all US sporter bolt actions are also, either 98 or 93-95 models.
I did say "ask", I don't ususally follow up to see if they sell and even if they do you will never know the actual price. Talking gun shows here, I don't do auction sites.
80 or 90%, don't matter, they are in the minority, right?

[randy langford]

I also think you have to take the overall condition of the rifle into consideration. Say if you had a mint one that just had the mum defaced but everything else was perfect iI would expect it to bring more than one with the mum but otherwise in poor condition. Just my two cents worth.

[Guamsst]

A Mauser M-98 action is a one piece bolt, two front lock lugs, saftey lug, the staggered box magazine, force feed claw extractor, large ring, cock on open design. Also the stripper clips. Not all these feature appeared all at once but the 98 model was the final 'ultimate' Mauser design. The Jap is a direct copy of the action except for the internals of the bolt. The US '03 is also a Mauser copy altho of the earlier 93-95 action, small ring reciever. That is why we paid Mauser 200,000 for patent infrigement and a couple pennies apiece for clips. Don't know if the japs paid or not, never heard they did. The 1917 is also a Mauser copy. And most all US sporter bolt actions are also, either 98 or 93-95 models.
I did say "ask", I don't ususally follow up to see if they sell and even if they do you will never know the actual price. Talking gun shows here, I don't do auction sites.
80 or 90%, don't matter, they are in the minority, right?

To me it wouldn't be a "variation" as most bolt action rifles are logically very similar in function and Arisakas weren't designed or produced by Mauser. For instance, one lug would make the strength lopsided, three lug is too much machining, two lug is logical, Cock on open or close,.....you only have two choices. I would not argue that it is similar and atleast partly based on the Mauser directly. But that's a matter of your definition of variation verses mine. And yes, most U.S. and sporting bolt actions are pretty much straight copies of the Mauser. So, I wouldn't Arisakas are a variation, but I see your logic and wouldn't say you are wrong.

Like I said, at 80% I doubt you would be far off. I have allot more than 6 but don't see much variation from your group. I am pretty certain between our guesstimates we are both right around the actual number.

Gunshows......wow......All I can say is you used the right word to qualify your statement when you said ASK. First thing I learned about gunshows is there is a reason it is called an ASKing price. They may get the extra $100 in your area though. Depends on the market. Just not what I see happening in South Dakota/Wyoming or in West Texas.

[Deano41]

d101, in answer to your question, I would suggest an inexpensive book, Japanese Rifles of World War II, by McCollum. It's available on Amazon for $18.95. It's an inexpensive starter book that might prevent an expensive mistake

There is more to Japanese rifles than just the "mum". Finding all matching rifles is sometimes more of a challenge. The Type 99 rifles were only made for about four years. And in that time frame there were many changes. Parts were deleted or changed due to material shortages (Courtesty of the U.S. Navy and U.S. Army Air Corps).

On today's market, some sellers will add things like dust covers and monopods on type 99 rifles, to "enhance" the price. There is one dealer who has been known to restamp parts to make matching rifles, knowing this enhances the price.

[Guamsst]

On today's market, some sellers will add things like dust covers and monopods on type 99 rifles, to "enhance" the price. There is one dealer who has been known to restamp parts to make matching rifles, knowing this enhances the price.

What do you mean 1?.....LOL Always be suspiscious of matching Jap rifles in GREAT condition or which have parts in mismatched condition. All of the repro parts are being passed off as original by !@$%heads with no morals. I highly suggest starting out by looking for ground mum mismatched rifles CHEAP. Then work your way up as you get more familiar. Even the cheap ones steadily gain value over time as more collectors are born every day but they aren't making anymore Arisakas.

[rayg]

My experience, mumed ones are much more desirable by the collecting community then rifles with ground mums and are far easier to sell and the average collector will pay a premium for a rifle with an unground mum. When I have a rifle with a ground mum on the table for sale, 90% of the folks interested in it, turn it over to see the mum and when they see it's ground the put it down and walk away. I do the same. Serious japanese rifle collectors are the exception of course. Ray

[Guamsst]

My experience, mumed ones are much more desirable by the collecting community then rifles with ground mums and are far easier to sell and the average collector will pay a premium for a rifle with an unground mum. When I have a rifle with a ground mum on the table for sale, 90% of the folks interested in it, turn it over to see the mum and when they see it's ground the put it down and walk away. I do the same. Serious japanese rifle collectors are the exception of course. Ray

Can't argue with that much. I also look at the mum right away. Difference is, as a serious collector I then look at part #s, original accessories, overall condition and price. Some people are more or less Mum collectors and don't care about anything else. They also generally don't know anything else. Can't recall how many times, but its been more than a couple that I've been told "Oh, that's a good one, it's got the mum see." The rifle generally has a struck mum not a full mum and some have been mismatched, rusty, sporterized(F@#$ed UP), and drilled and tapped. I will take a nice ground mum over a junked out full mum all day long.

Actually, I just remembered the worst case I've seen of this. The T-99 was fully Bubbafied and had an Enfield No1Mk3 rear sight. The guy argued with me and told me "it come that way, they all did?" I told him that was some very interesting information and just walked away....LOL

[Michaelp]

There are a lot of newer enthusiasts thanks to the internet who do not have much background in actuall collecting.
They missed the days of hounding vets or gushows with piles of Nambus and Lugers.

I think they don't realise the relative scarcity of unground pieces.
Wasn't that long ago that the typical Arisake was 25 bucks or so.

I got most of the basic pieces and now in my old age only buy better quality umolested pieces.
Wasn't always like that, though.

[Guamsst]

There are a lot of newer enthusiasts thanks to the internet who do not have much background in actuall collecting.
They missed the days of hounding vets or gushows with piles of Nambus and Lugers.

I think they don't realise the relative scarcity of unground pieces.
Wasn't that long ago that the typical Arisake was 25 bucks or so.

I got most of the basic pieces and now in my old age only buy better quality umolested pieces.
Wasn't always like that, though.

I am getting to the point i look for better and better pieces and will turn down low quality examples. The new people are not so picky and there will always be a market with them for just about anything at the right price. As for me. I took a big hit on a trade for a bent bolt 99 barreled receiver. It was a concentric circle receiver though. At the same time, I turned down a Jinsen 38 recently because it wasn't really worth salvaging as it was worth more to the kid as a shooter than it was to me as a collector.

[Art]

Not sure how you figure they are a Mauser variation but some people take the term more specifically than others. Maybe a topic for a new thread.



From the 11th edition of "Small Arms of the World" by Smith and Ezell:

".....the first Arisaka rifle, the 6.5mm Type 30, appeared and became the standard Japanese rifle in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05. The Type 30 introduced to Japan the Mauser action in a modified form and the 6.5mm semi-rimmed cartridge."

Mauser patented features in the Arisaka: The front locking bolt with the non rotating claw extractor, the staggered row box magazine, "controlled feed" from the magazine, the bolt release, the stripper clip, the safety which looks completely different but is in the same spot and operates in almost exactly the same fashion. Within all the Arisaka rifles from the Type 30 to the Type 99 beats the heart of a Mauser 95.

[dave]

Speaking of repro parts, the best by-pod made (I have one) is by a guy who posts on parallaxbills jap site. My inexperianced eye can not tell the differance. He does put a punch mark on the block, easily seen, tho.

[Clark Howard]

In less affluent areas of the country, the Type 99 without the mum is sought after as the basis for the working man's deer rifle. I have seen several that were obtained for less than the price of a box of Norma 7.7 ammo. The chromed barrel and chamber has resulted in a high survival rate for these rifles as hunting guns. Regards, Clark

[John Sukey]

And you can thank MacArthur for all those rifles with ground mums.. Incidentaly a 6.5 Arisaka is stronger than a 98 mouser in blowup tests performed years ago

[pirateclem]

Too many guys put way too much emphasis on that mum being intact. It is what it is, it's part of it's history. If I have equal examples of both of course I would choose the un-defaced weapon. However; any nice condition, matching numbers rifle has a good chance of being added to my collection.

Example: Litterally yesterday I picked up an Izawa 9th at a local shop. Mum with 2 bayonet strikes. Otherwise all matching numbers on a heck of a hard rifle to find. I am tickled.

[greendevil41]

It may depend on the collector and the rifle itself. I only own four Japanese rifles, three of which are mummed. But I just bought a Tokyo Juki Kogyo Series 27 with no mum since it was a uncommon rope hole variant with matching bolt for $175.00.

[Doug Rammel]

Well I bought one about 6 months ago without the mum. I just wanted one to shoot. Just didn't want a last ditch. It was my favorite type of transaction. "That's my brother-in -laws and he wants 125 bucks for it." It was missing the dust cover and monopod. It's one of my favorite guns now.