View Full Version : Frank Wesson Carbine
I just got back home from the gun show where I purchased a Frank Wesson carbine. I have several references which describe this arm (Noteably, William B. Edwards Civil War Firearms and John D. McCaulay's Carbines of the Civil War). Both references note that only 151 of the .44 RF military model were procured by the U.S.Ordnance Department but these carbines were also purchased by Missouri, Indiana, and possibly others with a total of somewhere of 3,000 to 4,000 seeing service in the war. The serial number on the one I purchased is #2027.
Does anyone here know of a list showing where the particular serial numbers went? Total production on all the military carbines was low and even the post war production is very scarce. Frank Wesson was known for sporting rifles and revolvers. Since Ben Kitteridge of Cincinnati was the agent for Wesson, perhaps they are in his records.
Any information about this carbine or its ammunition would really be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill D
There is some information on the Wesson in Thomas's Round Ball to Rimfire Vol.2,besides the 151 purchased by the government he lists the following-
Kentucky-1,366 Issued to the 7th,8th,and 9th Cavalry.Mustered into Federal service Aug.1862
Indiana-760
Kansas-undetermined number
Missouri-undetermined number
The illustrated original box of cartridges is labeled No.3 44-100ths Rifle Cartridges,but the actual caliber is .42.
There are 4 serial numbers in the SRS books,all listed as captured from Indians in the 1870s.
McAulay, in his Carbines of the U.S.Cavalry 1861-1905 states that the 3rd Missouri State Militia had 500 Wessons, the 6th had 132, and the 8th had 60 in their regimental inventories in 1864. Both Kansas and Kentucky failed to admit that they had any on this date but it is possible, I suppose, that they had turned them in for Federally issued carbines. The records show that there were 286 Wesson carbines in storage (in Federal facilities) "As of January 2 and November 5, 1864". Not all could have been federally owned since Ordnance only purchased 151.
I found one other reference to the Wesson in the "1909 Catalog - Springfield Armory Museum - Arms and Accouterments". It's serial number is 7030 and it is listed as "Arms captured from hostile Indians" (page 84).
My interest in these was stirred by my research on the "Sand Creek Massacre" of 1864 when Sergeant Morris Coffin of the Colorado 3rd Volunteer Cavalry later wrote of his exchange of gunfire with a Cheyenne Indian during the battle. Coffin stated that he was carrying a "Smith & Wesson carbine" which became inoperable when a piece of brass stuck in the chamber and he was unable to get it out. I don't know of a "Smith & Wesson carbine" available during this time frame and suggest that what Coffin actually had was a Wesson carbine which Coffin admitted he traded his Garibaldi rifle for from some immigrants on the Platte route. This seems to have been a fairly common occurrence with Colorado volunteer troops at the time. On the other hand, if he actually had meant he was carrying a Smith carbine, he would not have had a piece of brass stick in the chamber as these carbines used a rubber (or linen) cased cartridge.
Thanks, JB for your assistance. I may never learn any more about this weapon but it is a neat little item and a nice addition to my (rather small) collection of Civil War carbines.
Bill
McAulay, in his Carbines of the U.S.Cavalry 1861-1905 states that the 3rd Missouri State Militia had 500 Wessons, the 6th had 132, and the 8th had 60 in their regimental inventories in 1864. Both Kansas and Kentucky failed to admit that they had any on this date but it is possible, I suppose, that they had turned them in for Federally issued carbines. The records show that there were 286 Wesson carbines in storage (in Federal facilities) "As of January 2 and November 5, 1864". Not all could have been federally owned since Ordnance only purchased 151.
I found one other reference to the Wesson in the "1909 Catalog - Springfield Armory Museum - Arms and Accouterments". It's serial number is 7030 and it is listed as "Arms captured from hostile Indians" (page 84).
My interest in these was stirred by my research on the "Sand Creek Massacre" of 1864 when Sergeant Morris Coffin of the Colorado 3rd Volunteer Cavalry later wrote of his exchange of gunfire with a Cheyenne Indian during the battle. Coffin stated that he was carrying a "Smith & Wesson carbine" which became inoperable when a piece of brass stuck in the chamber and he was unable to get it out. I don't know of a "Smith & Wesson carbine" available during this time frame and suggest that what Coffin actually had was a Wesson carbine which Coffin admitted he traded his Garibaldi rifle for from some immigrants on the Platte route. This seems to have been a fairly common occurrence with Colorado volunteer troops at the time. On the other hand, if he actually had meant he was carrying a Smith carbine, he would not have had a piece of brass stick in the chamber as these carbines used a rubber (or linen) cased cartridge.
Thanks, JB for your assistance. I may never learn any more about this weapon but it is a neat little item and a nice addition to my (rather small) collection of Civil War carbines.
Bill
I was going to look in Pitman Notes Vol.1 to see if there's any info but can't lay my hands on it at the moment.
5MadFarmers
02-04-2012, 05:34
Interesting find Bill.
In 1869 Kentucky still had 320 on hand and Indiana had 716.
The confusion regarding calling the Wesson a Smith and Wesson may be due to several things,J.W.Storrs was the New York agent for both companies,an early Scientific American article mentioned that the rifles were being made by S&W which was erroneous,Franklin's brother Daniel was the Wesson in S&W,when S&W started making the cartridges they called them the No.3 Rifle Cartridge and early boxes are marked manufactured by S&W hence No.3 S&W Rifle Cartridge.
Modern estimates are that around four to five thousand of these rifles were produced during the war.
The confusion regarding calling the Wesson a Smith and Wesson may be due to several things,J.W.Storrs was the New York agent for both companies,an early Scientific American article mentioned that the rifles were being made by S&W which was erroneous,Franklin's brother Daniel was the Wesson in S&W,when S&W started making the cartridges they called them the No.3 Rifle Cartridge and early boxes are marked manufactured by S&W hence No.3 S&W Rifle Cartridge.
Modern estimates are that around four to five thousand of these rifles were produced during the war.
Just found my copy of Round Ball to Rimfire which I probably had never cracked the cover on. It does help explain part of the confusion surrounding Franklin Wesson and Daniel Baird Wesson and their separate firearms companies.
I helped do the initial archaeology at the Sand Creek site and one of the finds which I still have in my possession is a copper self-contained cartridge which appears to be of approximately .36 caliber. It is my feeling that other members of D Company, 3rd Colorado had also traded their issued firearms for more practical arms and probably also of Frank Wesson manufacture and from the same supply trains on the Platte River route. These firearms were of the "sporting" type as opposed to the .44 (.42) RF military carbines. Of course Kansas had some of the state purchased Wessons and Colorado Territory was a part of Kansas during or just prior to this event. It is not uncommon to find bullets from Smith carbines in Colorado and the pictographs found in the ledger books from Eugene Carr's 5th U.S. Cavalry raid on the Dog Soldiers camp plainly show Smiths.
This whole subject is very interesting.
Interesting find Bill.
In 1869 Kentucky still had 320 on hand and Indiana had 716.
In 1869, Kentucky and Indiana had pretty much settled their Indian problems. The less popular CW firearms were put up for auction and sold off. I think McAulay's Carbines of the U.S.Cavalry has some of the disposition records. The Spencer carbine and of course, the Sharps cartridge conversions soldiered on until replaced by the Springfield 1873 "Trapdoor".
Bill, could that be the Missouri 33rd? instead of the Missouri 3rd Militia? My great grandfather's rifle that he carried from the early fighting here in Missouri against Price & Shelby thru Tennesse & the end of the war was a 3 band .58 that one of my 2nd cousins has. I can't complain I got grandpa's old Win 97. The 33rd saw heavy action here & further east, unsure of the 3rd's record.
Just found my copy of Round Ball to Rimfire which I probably had never cracked the cover on. It does help explain part of the confusion surrounding Franklin Wesson and Daniel Baird Wesson and their separate firearms companies.
This whole subject is very interesting.
LOL We seem to have the same books in our libraries.I've got McCaulay's book also.:hello:
Bill, could that be the Missouri 33rd? instead of the Missouri 3rd Militia? My great grandfather's rifle that he carried from the early fighting here in Missouri against Price & Shelby thru Tennesse & the end of the war was a 3 band .58 that one of my 2nd cousins has. I can't complain I got grandpa's old Win 97. The 33rd saw heavy action here & further east, unsure of the 3rd's record.
I'm pretty sure it was the Missouri 3rd, George. At least McAulay says it is. I went back and checked. Do you happen to know where the 3rd was raised?
A number of years ago, I visited the Wilson's Creek site and had a long talk with one of the park people. My focus was on George Bent who had earlier joined Sterling Prices army and fought at Wilson's Creek. I later received a letter from him confirming several of my guesses and he also was able to fill me in on some things I didn't know about Colorado connections to Price.
Interesting Battle at Wilson's Creek. Bent was later captured at the battle of Corinth, Mississippi and was sent north to prison at St. Louis. He was interred in the same building that he had graduated from high school in.
LOL We seem to have the same books in our libraries.I've got McCaulay's book also.:hello:
Back in 1999 & 2000. I did some research for the National Park Service on the firearms used at the "Sand Creek Massacre" or Battle of Sand Creek" depending on your perspective. One of the conditions I set for this task was that NPS would furnish me reference material that I would need. As it turned out, I "needed" about $3,000 worth of books. I have a very nice library.
Another of the conditions was a flight to Hartford, Connecticut where I picked up a rental car and drove up to Springfield Armory for a two day tour of their weapons collection. I then drove down to West Point for a personalized tour of their collections. From there I drove to Gettysburg and again had a guided tour of their weapons. From there, I drove to D.C. and did a week at NARA searching records and then a plane ride to Denver. The nice thing about it all was, I had a letter of introduction from the superintendent of the Denver NPS district requesting that I be afforded all courtesies. It sure opened some doors. I got a tour of the third floor repository at Springfield Armory and was allowed to handle and photograph anything I requested. At West Point, I was allowed to visit their basement vault that contains thousands of artifacts including George A. Custer's saber which I was allowed to handle.
All in all, a dream trip.
I'm pretty sure it was the Missouri 3rd, George. At least McAulay says it is. I went back and checked. Do you happen to know where the 3rd was raised?
A number of years ago, I visited the Wilson's Creek site and had a long talk with one of the park people. My focus was on George Bent who had earlier joined Sterling Prices army and fought at Wilson's Creek. I later received a letter from him confirming several of my guesses and he also was able to fill me in on some things I didn't know about Colorado connections to Price.
Interesting Battle at Wilson's Creek. Bent was later captured at the battle of Corinth, Mississippi and was sent north to prison at St. Louis. He was interred in the same building that he had graduated from high school in.
LOL Bill,before I repeat something from a book you may have,do you have Dyer's Compendium of the War of the Rebellion.It has info on the Missouri 3rd Regt.State Militia Cav.,there were two a new and old as well as the 3rd Regt.Missouri Cavalry.
LOL Bill,before I repeat something from a book you may have,do you have Dyer's Compendium of the War of the Rebellion.It has info on the Missouri 3rd Regt.State Militia Cav.,there were two a new and old as well as the 3rd Regt.Missouri Cavalry.
Yes, I do have it. Thanks for reminding me. I'll look up the 3rd Missouri.
jon_norstog
02-05-2012, 04:40
From the capture notes it sounds like some of the Wessons got sold/traded to Indians after the CW. Not too surprising, there were a lot of guys out there trading. Read "Tough Trip through Paradise" by Andrew Garcia. My sense is that the western plains were just awash in guns.
jn
From the capture notes it sounds like some of the Wessons got sold/traded to Indians after the CW. Not too surprising, there were a lot of guys out there trading. Read "Tough Trip through Paradise" by Andrew Garcia. My sense is that the western plains were just awash in guns.
jn
I very much doubt if there are records showing that the guns were sold to Indians but there are records showing some of the surplus dealers who bought arms and ammunition from Ordnance and they weren't above selling/trading to anyone. The several states who probably owned the vast bulk of the Wessons were even less discriminating.
jon_norstog
02-05-2012, 07:50
Bill,
Of course they didn't sell "directly" to Indians. That's what middlemen are for. I've read that the Sioux and Cheyenne at Greasy Grass had something like 45 different calibers of cartrdge weapons ... a lot of them CW surplus.
But their preferred weapon was a striking weapon, so they could count coup. A lot of them carried sabers.
jn
Bill,
Of course they didn't sell "directly" to Indians. That's what middlemen are for. I've read that the Sioux and Cheyenne at Greasy Grass had something like 45 different calibers of cartrdge weapons ... a lot of them CW surplus.
But their preferred weapon was a striking weapon, so they could count coup. A lot of them carried sabers.
jn
I don't doubt the sabers. The Summit Springs ledger books show several Indians with sabers and when Black Kettle was killed at Wash!ta, he had a saber on him.
The Univ.of OK recently had a book sale over x-mas.I picked up 3 books on the recent archaeology of the Greasy Grass battlefield.The numbers and types of firearms projectiles,cases,and cartridges found attributed to Indian usage is astounding.A lot of muzzloading projectiles but a goodly number of Spencer,.44 Henry,and .44-40 cases and projectiles.The Indians were far better armed with firearms than previously thought,that's for sure.
Houze's book,Arming the West gives a good look at what was shipped west post-CW through the 1880s.
If you picked up 3 books on LBH archaeology, at least one of them has to be by Doug Scott. I worked with Doug at Sand Creek along with Dr. Bill Lees. Ed Bearss was out just before he retired and I got to pick the brains of all three. Archaeology of CW/Indian Wars sites is an interesting proposition and it was especially interesting how Scott arrived at some of his conclusions regarding LBH.
On the other side of the coin, I also got to work closely with members of the Northern Cheyenne tribe who were staff at Dull Knife College. The Cheyenne, mostly through oral tribal history, have an entirely different uptake of what happened, especially to Custer himself, at the Greasy Grass site.
Your assessment of Indian arms usage is correct, however. The Indians were far better armed and in far greater numbers than Custer had any reason to expect. His previous experience with large scale Indian confrontations (Wash!ta) had been some twelve years earlier and the tribes had come a long way in the interim.
I'll have to look for Arming the West. Sounds very interesting.
Yes,two of them were by Scott.It's really amazing all the artifacts they recovered after all these years.The drought out there,although bad for those who live in that area,was a chance in a lifetime for the archaeologists.LOL I bought several books when UofOK had that book sale,they had McChristians two vol. set on uniforms,arms,and equipment for $28.50 which was a real bargain.
The Houze book was based on his study of the Schuyler,Hartley,and Graham shipping records.The variety and types of firearms is amazing,in particular the number of CW era muzzleloading arms shipped up into the 1880s.Not everyone had a Colt SAA and a Winchester repeater that's for sure.
http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/Templates/book%20pages/houze_ATW.html
5MadFarmers
02-06-2012, 11:28
Read "Tough Trip through Paradise" by Andrew Garcia.
Sounds interesting. Just ordered it. Thanks for bringing it up.
Sounds interesting. Just ordered it. Thanks for bringing it up.
LOL Me too.Found a used copy on Alibris.
Doug McChristian also helped withh the Sand Creek archaeology and I got be be friends with him. I see him every year at the Colorado Gun Collectors show where he has a table and sells books. Jerry Greene is another friend that I see annually at the CGC show. Jerry has a number of books on the Indian Wars and one of the finest collections of militaria from the Civil War thru the Indian Wars. I think all of these guys are now retired from the NPS.
jon_norstog
02-06-2012, 06:13
Sounds interesting. Just ordered it. Thanks for bringing it up.
And I'm gonna order "Arming the West." Where I got the figure on the many different firearms in use at Greasy Grass was Osprey Publishing's "warriors at the Little bighorn" part of their "men at arms" series. It's a real eye-opener.
jn
For a view of what was recovered at the Little Big Horn especially concerning firearms related recoveries such as ammunition in the form of cartridges,cases,and projectiles get Archaeological Insights into The Custer Battle-An Assessment of the 1984 Field Season by Douglas D.Scott and Richard A.Fox,Jr. It and two other books by those authors are available from the Univ.of Oklahoma Press on-line.
What was interesting they did forensic matching of many cases there were multiples of the same case and could track the movements of the shooters and plot them on a map.
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