Lend Lease 1917?

[Jay Johnson]

I found what I believe to be a Lend Lease 1917 in a local gun shop. An Eddystone and has British proofs on the left side of the receiver, the stock has a brass medallion with some numbers on it embedded in the stock apx. 3" from the butt plate on the right side. It also has a brass grenade site mount with graduations (in degrees?) on the left side of the forend embedded in the stock. The stock itself has no marks that I could see and is very dark with no cracks, the metal finish is mostly gone, the barrel is frosty, but no rust that I could see; overall the rifle is sound and shootable by visual inspection (would need to headspace it before I fired it). Last thing, it's marked ".303 British". They want $399 for it and I could probably offer $350 and take it, is it worth it? How rare are they?

All advise will be greatly appreciated, TIA.

[Tuna]

It's not an M1917 that your looking at. It's a P14 made here for Great Britian and not a lend lease rifle. That's why it's in .303 and not 30-06. It was designed by Britian and built by the same folks who later made the same rifle as the M1917 for the US government. If in decent shape it's worth more then the asking price of $399.

[Jay Johnson]

Thanks, Tuna. Now that I think about it, it did not say Eddystone on the top of the forward receiver, I can't remember what it said actually... When was the P14 produced?

[Dan Shapiro]

When was the P14 produced?

Approx 1915-17

[Doug Rammel]

When was the P14 produced?

1916 and 17. If it's an Eddy it will be marked E by the serial number. RE is Remington and w is Winchester. The serial number will also be on the barrel under the back hand guard.

[Johnny P]

I found what I believe to be a Lend Lease 1917 in a local gun shop. An Eddystone and has British proofs on the left side of the receiver,
All advise will be greatly appreciated, TIA.

Another case of where British commercial proofs don't automatically indicate Lend-Lease. The British proofs only indicate it was sold commercially in England. The date of sale could be determined from the proofs.

[mannparks]

jay, why do you think it is a eddystone and where did you see 303 british?--charles

[Nate]

I have owned a M1917 with the red band and Canadian markings. Doubtful if Lend Lease had anything to do with it. Wish I still had it.

[skinsfan]

pattern 14's are great rifles...sounds like a good price in general....great shhoters for the most part-scott

[kcw]

That's not a grenade sight, but rather the forward part of the "Volley sight" system. The rear portion (the aperture) is back by the bolt release. You snap the rear aperture sight up (rotates 90 degrees) andthen set pointed end of the dial indicator on the forward portion to yardage ordered by an officer. You use the knob opposite the pointed end of the indicator as a front sight. Volley fire tended to be a "mass fire" thing, maybe at a distant target like a church steeple that was suspected fo being used by an artillery spotter, sniper ect.. Many P-14's had the system arsenal remove between the wars, the so called "Weedon Repair". The rear ap post as cut off and the forward dial setup remove and the wood plugged. P-14's retaining the complete volley sight system command a premium price over those without. Frosted barrel can be good shooters, provided there's good strong rifling. They can be SOB's to clean however, especially if you fire old cordite GI ammo, which I compare to the next worse thing to black powered for cleaning. As to headspacing, that's always a good idea, but GI 303 chamber specs were pretty lose to begin with, but P-14 parts were built on pretty closed tolerances. If it were mine I'd just tie it to a tire and run 50' of rope back if I had concern (done that more times than I can remember). If the fired brass looks Ok (no abnormal bulges, ect.) I'd consider good to go. You might want to see if the dealer will give you a written "safe to shoot" warranty so you can get your money back, or at least credit in the rare event that it splits the brass, ect.

[Jay Johnson]

jay, why do you think it is a eddystone and where did you see 303 british?--charles

I believe I saw the ".303 British" stamped on the left side to the receiver towards the front and above the wood line.


That's not a grenade sight, but rather the forward part of the "Volley sight" system. The rear portion (the aperture) is back by the bolt release. You snap the rear aperture sight up (rotates 90 degrees) andthen set pointed end of the dial indicator on the forward portion to yardage ordered by an officer. You use the knob opposite the pointed end of the indicator as a front sight. Volley fire tended to be a "mass fire" thing, maybe at a distant target like a church steeple that was suspected fo being used by an artillery spotter, sniper ect.. Many P-14's had the system arsenal remove between the wars, the so called "Weedon Repair". The rear ap post as cut off and the forward dial setup remove and the wood plugged. P-14's retaining the complete volley sight system command a premium price over those without. Frosted barrel can be good shooters, provided there's good strong rifling. They can be SOB's to clean however, especially if you fire old cordite GI ammo, which I compare to the next worse thing to black powered for cleaning. As to headspacing, that's always a good idea, but GI 303 chamber specs were pretty lose to begin with, but P-14 parts were built on pretty closed tolerances. If it were mine I'd just tie it to a tire and run 50' of rope back if I had concern (done that more times than I can remember). If the fired brass looks Ok (no abnormal bulges, ect.) I'd consider good to go. You might want to see if the dealer will give you a written "safe to shoot" warranty so you can get your money back, or at least credit in the rare event that it splits the brass, ect.

Very useful information, kcw, I'm going back to the shop on Tuesday to have another, more informed look at it and this information will be most useful, thanks.

[mannparks]

I believe I saw the ".303 British" stamped on the left side to the receiver towards the front and above the wood line.



Very useful information, kcw, I'm going back to the shop on Tuesday to have another, more informed look at it and this information will be most useful, thanks.
jay,i do not know why the marking of "303 british" would have been struck on that rifle.
british exports marks would look sonething like this .303 2.222"
18.5 tons per square"
also eddystone p14 recivers rings are [ERA]

18.5 tons per square"

[kcw]

jay,i do not know why the marking of "303 british" would have been struck on that rifle.
british exports marks would look sonething like this .303 2.222"
18.5 tons per square"
also eddystone p14 recivers rings are [ERA]


18.5 tons per square"

Could merely be an importer thing. All the Turk M38 mausers I got came through CAI and were stamped "M1938 German 8mm" on the barrel between the forestock and the front sight.

[Dan Wilson]

If its a P14, instead of Eddystone it will be stamped ERA (Eddystone, Remington Arms)

[dave]

I have owned a M1917 with the red band and Canadian markings. Doubtful if Lend Lease had anything to do with it. Wish I still had it.

The red band was a warning to the troops that the rifle was not standard caliber, in this case 30-06, not .303. So that band indicates it was a lead lease rifle, given to Brits who then gave it to the Canadians! We did not have a lend lease agreement with Canada.

[chuckindenver]

the red and white band on P14,s was to show that it is a drill rifle, and not be fired.

[Johnny P]

We did not have a lend lease agreement with Canada.

The Lend-Lease Act was to provide aid to all our allies, Canada included.

[chuckindenver]

here are the countries that could have been part of the lend lease act.
2.1 Albania
2.2 Andorra
2.3 Argentina
2.4 Armenia
2.5 Australia
2.6 Austria
2.7 Azerbaijan
2.8 Bahrain
2.9 Belarus
2.10 Belgium
2.11 Bolivia
2.12 Brazil
2.13 Bulgaria
2.14 Canada
2.15 Caribbean Islands
2.16 Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
2.17 Chile
2.18 China
2.19 Colombia
2.20 Costa Rica
2.21 Independent State of Croatia
2.22 Cuba
2.23 Cyprus
2.24 Czechoslovakia
2.25 Denmark
2.26 Dominican Republic
2.27 Ecuador
2.28 Egypt
2.29 El Salvador
2.30 Estonia
2.31 Ethiopia
2.32 Fiji
2.33 Finland
2.34 France 2.34.1 Free French Forces
2.34.2 Vichy France

2.35 Georgia
2.36 Germany
2.37 Ghana
2.38 Gibraltar
2.39 Greece
2.40 Guatemala
2.41 Haiti
2.42 Honduras
2.43 Hong Kong
2.44 Hungary
2.45 Iceland
2.46 British India (now India, Pakistan & Bangladesh) 2.46.1 Andaman & Nicobar Islands

2.47 Indonesia
2.48 Iran
2.49 Iraq
2.50 Ireland
2.51 Italy
2.52 Japan
2.53 Korea
2.54 Laos
2.55 Latvia
2.56 Lebanon
2.57 Liberia
2.58 Liechtenstein
2.59 Lithuania
2.60 Luxembourg
2.61 Malaya
2.62 Malta
2.63 Manchukuo
2.64 Mexico
2.65 Monaco
2.66 Mongolia
2.67 Morocco
2.68 Nauru
2.69 Nepal
2.70 Netherlands 2.70.1 Netherlands East Indies

2.71 Newfoundland
2.72 New Zealand
2.73 Nicaragua
2.74 Northern Rhodesia
2.75 Norway
2.76 Oman
2.77 Palestine
2.78 Panama
2.79 Paraguay
2.80 Peru
2.81 Philippines
2.82 Poland
2.83 Portugal 2.83.1 Portuguese Timor
2.83.2 Macau

2.84 Romania
2.85 Samoa
2.86 American Samoa
2.87 San Marino
2.88 Saudi Arabia
2.89 Singapore
2.90 Slovakia
2.91 South Africa
2.92 Southern Rhodesia
2.93 Soviet Union
2.94 Spain
2.95 Sweden
2.96 Switzerland
2.97 Syria
2.98 Thailand
2.99 Tonga
2.100 Transjordan
2.101 Turkey
2.102 United Kingdom 2.102.1 Channel Islands
2.102.2 Isle of Man
2.102.3 Northern Ireland

2.103 United States of America
2.104 Uruguay
2.105 Vatican City
2.106 Venezuela
2.107 Yemen
2.108 Yugoslavia

[chuckindenver]

all i did was coogle lend lease act...countries involved..took a little digging..maybe 10 minutes.

[leftyo]

i think your list might be slightly incorrect, the lend lease act was during the early part of WWII, do you really believe we supplied arms to Germany? we may have supplied arms to them long after the war, but that would not have been under the lend lease act.

[dave]

The original Lend Lease was with England only, and it was before we were in the war! It was to get around our neutrality before we got into the war. We traded some old destroyers for bases in the Brit. possesions in the Carribean (sp?). It was later expaned to incude small arms and other war material for gold (they only paid pennys on the dollar), I believe. We could not out right "give" them any war material without breaking our neutrality. After we got into the war all bets were off and the Lend Lease act no longer applied.
Those other countries may have gotten military aid from us but it was not Lend Lease, before we were in the war!

[chuckindenver]

heres how it was laid out.

Lend-Lease (Public Law 77-11)[1] was the program under which the United States of America supplied the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, China, Free France, and other Allied nations with materiel between 1941 and 1945. It was signed into law on March 11, 1941, a year and a half after the outbreak of World War II in Europe in September 1939 but nine months before the U.S. entered the war in December 1941. Formally titled An Act to Further Promote the Defense of the United States, the Act effectively ended the United States' pretense of neutrality.

[Johnny P]

While the U.S. did swap England ships for bases in the western Atlantic, this was not Lend-Lease. As mentioned above, the Lend-Lease Act was signed March 11, 1941, and cancelled September 20, 1945.
The Lend-Lease Act gave the President broad powers to sell, transfer title to, or otherwise dispose of military goods to our allies. In other words, the President could do whatever he wanted as far as getting supplies to our allies.

England was still receiving Model 1911A1 pistols right up to the time the war ended in Europe, and for the most part none were ever used.