lyman long slide sight on 03's.

[k stein]

can anyone help with an approximate date when the long slide 48's were installed on 03's by springfield armory? Also, what were the dates of manufactures of these sights? Thanks, Ken

[Herschel]

This is from The Springfield 1903 Rifles by Brophy, pages 476 and 477. "As previously mentioned, the long slide (2.5 inch) No. 48 was introduced by Lyman as a sight for commercial sale to target shooters and sportsmen. It was not the sight that was purchased and installed by Springfield Armory on caliber .22 gallery practice rifles, caliber .30 sporting-style rifles (NRA Sporters), or heavy barrel target rifles (International and Style T). A no. 48 sight with a short slide was the only type used by Springfield on issue and sales rifles manufactured there."

If we can believe Brophy about this, and the book is known to contain errors, the Long Slide Lyman 48 was never installed on rifles by SA. Of course, one should never say never when talking about the 1903 variations produced by SA but at least it seems that it was not routinely installed on any 1903's.

I trust that you are referring to the Long Slide as the one with the elevation scale numbered to 150. The standard slide (numbered to 125) is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the long. I suppose Lyman's later #48 sights with elevation scales numbered to 90 or 60 has caused this confusion.

[lonewoolf]

The long slide was always by special order only, never part of any original Lyman 48

[Michael Petrov]

The long slide was always by special order only, never part of any original Lyman 48

Not sure I understanding what you are trying to say. The long slide 150 scale was introduced in 1911 and this was the only length slide Lyman made until 1919.

Prototype on the left and production model on the right.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/mjpetrov/mvc-004x-3.jpg

[Don W]

Here is a copy of an old post (2005) that I had made.

I don't know squat, but i've gota book; "OLD GUNSIGHTS, A Collector's Guide, 1850-1965" By Nick Stroebel. I will quote, paraphrase, & add notes.

Production: 1911 into 1974 ( 63 Years )

Three Distinct Variations (with numerous sub-variations) with a general (common) production overlap in the variations. Sorry to say, documentation was deposited at the bottom of the Connecticut Land Dump!

Book says: "Application Codes on all Lyman No. 48 Receiver Sights are stamped in the sight's mounting block."

My notes: Funny thing I don't find that to be the case on models manufactured for
M1903 Rifles. I have two loose ones and have seen others that do not have the application code marking. Well! ~~ the book states that some early ones lack markings of any kind, except for the Assembly Code Stamps (inside the mounting block and on the back of the elevating slide). One of mine seems to be early & the other is later.

These "Assembly Code" numbers should match, except on No. 48-C and 48-S sights that were subjected to WW II Springfield Armory rebuilds. Those may be "parkerized" also.

First Two Variations had the same size mounting block; 1.0625" x 1.250".

1st Variation Features ( 1911 to 1919):
Long Slide = Graduated to 150 points
Windage Scale is on Shooter's Side of bar.
A screw-in apperature was standard, but soon a fold down peep was offered
(for 50 cents LESS)
Elevation & Windage adjustable with 1-Minute Clicks & Knobs had 4-"Point" marks

2nd Variation Features ( 1919 to 1947 )
I am saying "Medium Length Slide"= Graduated to 125 points is standard. My note; some just have the 125 & others have, what I call 125+2 point markings. Maybe these 125+2's were 150's that were cut down by Lyman??? Also, the Long (150) Slide is available as a special order.

Windage Scale was moved to the FRONT of the bar on all models, except the No. 48S
Turn Down Peep is now standard & screw-in disc cost 50cents extra.

Elevation & Windage available in 1/4, 1/2, & 1.0 Minute click adjustments. The special order 150 point slide was also offered in 1/3 Minute click adjustments.
Larger Adjustment Knobs standard on Target Model sights.

Hunting Style Knobs were available with 1/3, 1/2 (standard), & 1.0 Minute point markings (clicks???).

3rd Variation Features ( 1947 to 1974) // Mounting Block Size is now smaller ( 1.00" x 1.0625" ).
The rear of the block is now "Radiused" at the stock line, so that no wood need be removed when mounting the sight.

The Slide Length is shortened again = Graduated to 60 Points and a new style elevation screw (eliminated clearance cut in stock for screw).
A new "Long Slide" Graduated to 105 Points was now available on Special Order. And, slides have been observed Graduated to 75 Points.
Turn-Down Peep was Eliminated.

Coin Slot ( 1/4 Minute) Knobs now optional on all models.
The Slide Release Spring was changed from the external flat spring to an Internal Coil Spring.

Any "Hard Fast Rules?????" Have fun trying to figure out what you have.

Brophy ( p 474 - 480 ) & others classify Lyman No. 48 Sights ( for M1903's & M1922's) also as 48B & 48C. This "Gunsights" book makes no such distinction. If you all see some marked that way, let us know.

Springfield Armory AND Rock Island Arsenal installed Lyman 48 long slide sights on early rifles.

Hope this helps. Don W :1948:

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Thanks, Don. I remember your old post, and I have it printed out somewhere in my now huge stash of notes. Now I can print it again.

Jim

[Herschel]

Don, What years and on which models did SA and RIA mount the long slide Lyman 48? I thought they may have been mounted on the Style T but could find no documentation to support that.

[Cosine26]

I believe that the Lyman 48 elevation slide was always calibrated in MOA (minutes of angle) in lieu of “points”. As I understand it the “point “was used by the US Army on the windage scale of both the Krag and the M1903. As I understand it, the point on the Krag was equal to 6 MOA while on the M1903 it was 4 MOA. The windage scale on the Lyman 48 was marked in 4 minute points although the “clicks” were MOA. When the Lyman 48 went to ¼ MOA clicks, the windage scale was marked in MOA in lieu of points.
Comments?

[Don W]

Hello Herschel, I have NO documentation!

All I am doing is trying to connect thoughts. I am probably out-of-bounds here, but here goes.

I was under the impression that early (1911? ~ 1917?) "NRA Sales Rifles" could be purchased with the option of having a Lyman M48 installed (with an additional $ charge incurred). NRA Sales Rifles of that period were supplied by Springfield Armory & Rock Island Arsenal. As Michael & Nick note, the "Lyman Long Slide" was the only configuration being fabricated by Lyman during those years. Someone here might be able access a NRA sales bulletin / advertisement for that period. If so, please post a photo copy.

The later production of Configuration "T", M1922s, and other "Special Production" rifles by Springfield Arsenal is a completely different category & subject, with respect to sights available and installed. On those; I would think that the archives of SA, if they are still available for review, would be the place to look for any documentation. For "Ts" & M1922s I would believe that they were fabricated, from scratch, in accordance with a specific "Build Specification or Booklet" for each different configuration.

My thoughts :icon_salut: , Don

[Michael Petrov]

For more information on the Lyman 48 sight may I suggest an article in the 2007 Gun Digest The Genesis of The Lyman #48 Sight written by my friend Jim Foral.

[EriCal]

I have two NRA Sporters. One has a 'short' slide; the other a 'long' slide.

[DanO68]

Don,
I have what I believe to be a 48S (125+2) Mounted on a sporter remington '03-A3 barrel marked 1944. Currently the monte carlo stock is cut out for the sight. the base and aperature slide is marked '22'. The peep has the optional smaller flip peep.
1) Was any milling done to the actions to install?
2) If the sight was designed for the .22, and now is on a 30-06, is there a certain load that might be equiv for use of the moa's (I don't get the MOA's yet)
3) where did you find all this out? I have reduced your email to 'word' for filing, but am interested in REALLY learning how to use this sight w/o wasting loads.

Thanks, Dan



Here is a copy of an old post (2005) that I had made.

I don't know squat, but i've gota book; "OLD GUNSIGHTS, A Collector's Guide, 1850-1965" By Nick Stroebel. I will quote, paraphrase, & add notes.

Production: 1911 into 1974 ( 63 Years )

Three Distinct Variations (with numerous sub-variations) with a general (common) production overlap in the variations. Sorry to say, documentation was deposited at the bottom of the Connecticut Land Dump!

Book says: "Application Codes on all Lyman No. 48 Receiver Sights are stamped in the sight's mounting block."

My notes: Funny thing I don't find that to be the case on models manufactured for
M1903 Rifles. I have two loose ones and have seen others that do not have the application code marking. Well! ~~ the book states that some early ones lack markings of any kind, except for the Assembly Code Stamps (inside the mounting block and on the back of the elevating slide). One of mine seems to be early & the other is later.

These "Assembly Code" numbers should match, except on No. 48-C and 48-S sights that were subjected to WW II Springfield Armory rebuilds. Those may be "parkerized" also.

First Two Variations had the same size mounting block; 1.0625" x 1.250".

1st Variation Features ( 1911 to 1919):
Long Slide = Graduated to 150 points
Windage Scale is on Shooter's Side of bar.
A screw-in apperature was standard, but soon a fold down peep was offered
(for 50 cents LESS)
Elevation & Windage adjustable with 1-Minute Clicks & Knobs had 4-"Point" marks

2nd Variation Features ( 1919 to 1947 )
I am saying "Medium Length Slide"= Graduated to 125 points is standard. My note; some just have the 125 & others have, what I call 125+2 point markings. Maybe these 125+2's were 150's that were cut down by Lyman??? Also, the Long (150) Slide is available as a special order.

Windage Scale was moved to the FRONT of the bar on all models, except the No. 48S
Turn Down Peep is now standard & screw-in disc cost 50cents extra.

Elevation & Windage available in 1/4, 1/2, & 1.0 Minute click adjustments. The special order 150 point slide was also offered in 1/3 Minute click adjustments.
Larger Adjustment Knobs standard on Target Model sights.

Hunting Style Knobs were available with 1/3, 1/2 (standard), & 1.0 Minute point markings (clicks???).

3rd Variation Features ( 1947 to 1974) // Mounting Block Size is now smaller ( 1.00" x 1.0625" ).
The rear of the block is now "Radiused" at the stock line, so that no wood need be removed when mounting the sight.

The Slide Length is shortened again = Graduated to 60 Points and a new style elevation screw (eliminated clearance cut in stock for screw).
A new "Long Slide" Graduated to 105 Points was now available on Special Order. And, slides have been observed Graduated to 75 Points.
Turn-Down Peep was Eliminated.

Coin Slot ( 1/4 Minute) Knobs now optional on all models.
The Slide Release Spring was changed from the external flat spring to an Internal Coil Spring.

Any "Hard Fast Rules?????" Have fun trying to figure out what you have.

Brophy ( p 474 - 480 ) & others classify Lyman No. 48 Sights ( for M1903's & M1922's) also as 48B & 48C. This "Gunsights" book makes no such distinction. If you all see some marked that way, let us know.

Springfield Armory AND Rock Island Arsenal installed Lyman 48 long slide sights on early rifles.

Hope this helps. Don W :1948:

[Herschel]

I am not Don but believe I can answer your questions. 1. The Lyman 48S was designed for the 1903/1922 action with the smooth rounded bridge. I believe the mail dovetail on the 03A3 action would have to be milled down to make the slide fit over it without excessive elevation and would have to be matched by a taller front sight. . If the mail dovetail is absent, then it was milled off. The Lyman 48 with elevation scale numbered to 125 went out of production in 1947. It is my opinion that your Remington 03A3 was sporterized later than that so your sight was probably "new old stock" or was salvaged off an earlier 1903 NRA Sporter or sporterized 1903. Both of which could have used the Lyman 48 with the hinged aperture. The "22" on the elevation slide and base is evidence that these two parts were made together and not made up from parts of two different sights.

The minute of angle is, I believe, one 60th of a degree of angle. The mil is the same whether it is for an 8" howitzer or .17 HMR. The elevation adjustment is not matched to the trajectory of the bullet as is the elevation adjustment on some modern telescopic sights.

The Lyman 48 sights information is available in Old Gunsights, A Collector's Guide, 1850-1965 by Nick Stroebel. I believe it is out of print as it is copyrighted 1998.

FWIW

Additional 11-4-11. Darreld, I have seen used Lyman 48 sights with the lip ground back. I didn't realize it was to make it fit an 03A3. I don't know when the S suffix was started on the Lyman 48. Was the S used prior to WWII?

[Darreld Walton]

Herschel, if you take a look at the side profile of the 48 base, and a 48'S', you'll see that the "lip" on top of the base of the S base has been cut back to accomodate the A3 bridge. The "plain" 48 base won't fit correctly onto an A3, but is perfect for an 03, and a lot of M98 Mausers, as well! The 48S will fit either 03 or A3, and several other manufacturers' models that had the rear sight mounted on the right side of the receiver. (please be kind, I'm working with a rather shaky memory here)
I've bought a few A3's that were modified into "club match" guns, and had 48S sights installed, and some of them had the male dovetail cut down, but it was to get enough 'down' elevation, as they usually had the wrong (too short) front sight installed, and rather than getting the right front sight, the owners broke out a file and cut it down for clearance!

[Bob Walker]

Here are some pics of my early RIA, sn 218036, barrel date 8-12. It's probably an NRA rifle, but not marked as such. It's the earliest long slide that I have seen mounted on a rifle. Because of the quality of the woodwork on the stock, I believe it was done at the factory. The cuts are almost invisible unless you look really close.