Cadet

[kurtflys]

Does anyone have any good pictures of an 1884 Cadet they could share?
Thanks

[Major Tom]

Try www.trapdoorcollector.com
Go to section where there are rifles for sale. There are usually good pics of most anything.
Also, Dick Hosmer has a website showing his collection. Google Dick Hosmer.

[kurtflys]

Thanks. Al does not seem to have any high grade cadets right now. Is he still selling? I have bought a number of nice rifles from AL.
Kurt

[Major Tom]

Yeah, Al is still selling. Most of his stock is sold, but, you can click on them to see them up close. I bought a pristine M1884 rifle from him last Sept. along with an original bayonet and scabbard and sling. A buyer can trust Al.

[kurtflys]

I guess I will sell my TD's some day, and I hope Al will take care of that for me. He seems to get fair money for his guns, and good money for good guns.
But for now I am still chasing Cadets=)
Kurt

[geeck]

This is my first TD, I recently bought for Louisiana's new primitive arms deer season category. I didn't even realize it was a Cadet until after I made the deal... and I feel like I got a very good deal:) The bore is really good and the Buffington sights are flawless, overall a great rifle. We got a quick oral history from the seller, seems it was in his family for around 100 years but didn't know how they originally acquired the rifle.

http://home.earthlink.net/~geeck/report/cadetc.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~geeck/report/cadetcartouchec.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~geeck/report/cadeteaglec.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~geeck/report/cadetbreechc.jpg

[kurtflys]

Very. Take good care of it. It is a piece of history, and when it is gone, well you know.

[Major Tom]

Just a note: cadet rifles were not issued with slings or even sling swivels. Yours must have been added later by a civilian.

[geeck]

Just a note: cadet rifles were not issued with slings or even sling swivels. Yours must have been added later by a civilian.

What you say is generally accepted as true, however in my research i've seen evidence that some Cadets were issused with swivels... that's what's you get on the ERRORNET everybody's an expert.:)

What's more important is... I couldn't care less, I was looking for a shooter and a little piece of history and I think I got that. I'm a rifleman first and a collector... maybe.:icon_scratch:

[kurtflys]

the 84 was the only cadet with swivels so you are safe there. Sorry about my PM I was think about another gun.. You did very well on this one.
Kurt

[Dick Hosmer]

Need to clarify a few things here, since several half-truths have been voiced so far.

SA made "trapdoor" cadet rifles in small (sometimes VERY small) batches over the years, from 1867 until 1893. With ONE exception, they did NOT originally have swivels, "as made". The "no-swivel" design (West Point NOT having changed their drill regulations) re-surfaced with the 1896 Krag Cadet, which did not have them.

(1) M1867 (.50) - NO
(2) M1869 (.50) - NO
(3) M1873 - NO
(4) "M1877" - NO
(5) "M1879" - NO
(6) M1884 (type 1) - NO
(7) M1884 (type 2) - YES

The exception (7) ONLY has swivels because the one piece guard bow utilized on them was not made in "no-swivel" form. That was the last version, and the one that was made in the largest quantities. Number (1) is very rare, (2) is scarce, (4) is rare, (5) is not common. Numbers (4) and (5) were not "official" models; I include them only because the "small batch" concept produced discernable variations in sights and receiver, giving the arms enough of a different appearance to be "collectable".

Today we see many (3) through (6) cadet rifles with swivels. They were not MADE that way, but acquired them along their life by various means. Some were likely done during period of use, by request. Others were assembled by parties unknown. As to the rifle which started it all, it is a very nice specimen of (6) to which swivels have been added.

Since the gentleman is not a collector, he is not concerned, which is fine - he has a very nice rifle. However, his response about "experts" needed, IMHO, a record-straightening reply. I've collected TDs and Krags for 40 years, written a book on them, and currently own examples of all seven cadet rifles noted.

As an aside, if he could present the source(s) of the "research" mentioned, I'm sure it would shed further light on the situation. Thanks.

[geeck]

Need to clarify a few things here, since several half-truths have been voiced so far.

SA made "trapdoor" cadet rifles in small (sometimes VERY small) batches over the years, from 1867 until 1893. With ONE exception, they did NOT originally have swivels, "as made". The "no-swivel" design (West Point NOT having changed their drill regulations) re-surfaced with the 1896 Krag Cadet, which did not have them.

(1) M1867 (.50) - NO
(2) M1869 (.50) - NO
(3) M1873 - NO
(4) "M1877" - NO
(5) "M1879" - NO
(6) M1884 (type 1) - NO
(7) M1884 (type 2) - YES

The exception (7) ONLY has swivels because the one piece guard bow utilized on them was not made in "no-swivel" form. That was the last version, and the one that was made in the largest quantities. Number (1) is very rare, (2) is scarce, (4) is rare, (5) is not common. Numbers (4) and (5) were not "official" models; I include them only because the "small batch" concept produced discernable variations in sights and receiver, giving the arms enough of a different appearance to be "collectable".

Today we see many (3) through (6) cadet rifles with swivels. They were not MADE that way, but acquired them along their life by various means. Some were likely done during period of use, by request. Others were assembled by parties unknown. As to the rifle which started it all, it is a very nice specimen of (6) to which swivels have been added.

Since the gentleman is not a collector, he is not concerned, which is fine - he has a very nice rifle. However, his response about "experts" needed, IMHO, a record-straightening reply. I've collected TDs and Krags for 40 years, written a book on them, and currently own examples of all seven cadet rifles noted.

As an aside, if he could present the source(s) of the "research" mentioned, I'm sure it would shed further light on the situation. Thanks.

I was in no way trying to be "flip" with you guys I was trying to get across I'm no expert just because I read something on the internet (errornet). One of the places I read that my rifle may be a Type II M84 w/swivels was here: http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/FAQ.html

SHOULD CADET RIFLES HAVE SLING SWIVELS?

Cadet rifles were, with one exception, originally produced WITHOUT sling swivels. That exception is the very last version, sometimes called by collectors the Model 1884 Type II, all numbered well above 500000, which utilized the one-piece milled trigger guard. That part was only produced WITH a swivel, thus, any arms made with it WILL have sling swivels.
Those earlier .45-70 (and .50-70) cadet rifles found with swivels have had them added at a later date. IF a given arm were used in a unit, or at a location, which required slings (West Point did not) the presence of swivels MAY represent legitimate period use. However, the cadet bands and trigger guards can be difficult to find; thus, over the years, "assemblers" have had to use what they could get. The parts interchange easily, and as there is NO way to tell for certain whether a given arm is "correct" or not, MOST serious collectors choose to avoid the issue entirely by acquiring specimens WITHOUT sling swivels.

Of course my rifle is SN 490999 which is below the 500000 quoted above. I also read that the records were not perfect so I can only assume (hope more like it) this is the case with my rifle and it is correct for a M84 type II Cadet. I will say this, I've been around older steel and wood weapons most of my life if this was refitted with swivels it was done many many years ago. But in the end since I'm not a collector just looking for a good shooter I'm happy with this rifle even if it's not correct.

Thanks for the info Mr. Hosmer I really appreciated it.

[Dick Hosmer]

[chuckle - sorry!]

Putting FAQs on that site was my idea, a few years ago, and I wrote them with Al's blessing. Thank goodness I was consistant!

Your rifle does not have the one-piece guard, so it is in "type 1" configuration. It is still a very nice-looking specimen, which should give you a lot of pleasure.