.223 Sizing w/Dillon 550 vs Single Stage

[Hefights]

I have a Redding bushing competition sizing die in .223. I am reloading for a scoped 24" heavy barrel AR upper 1:8 twist using 77 gr Sierra MK and 22.5 gr of Reloader 15, a load proven quite accurate in the past. I am being extra deliberate and using very high quality brass. Noticed that when sizing the cases using the Dillion 550, the end result is a round with runout consistently between 0.004 and 0.005, sometimes greater. When sizing using an RCBS Rockchucker (and a method to lock the die in place strait & true), there is consistently only about 0.001 in runout, much better concentricity. Dont think it possible to achieve this good of alignment between shell holder and die in the RL 550.

Sizing with the Dillon 550 is fast, but prohibits the ability to do several case preparation steps, and it appears to be causing some eccentricity in the cases. Thus, looks like I should prep cases with single stage press, then charge the cases and seat the bullets in the progressive. Anyone doing this or have an experience like this? Does the concentricity matter that much in your experience? If I was reloading for a std AR or DCM type rifle, I might not care, would you? Thx for any input.

[JDBraddy]

I lube, then full-length resize/deprime with a lee hand press. Tumble the resized and deprimed brass again to remove the lube. I trim each with the Gracy trimmer, once more through a deprime only die in the lee hand press, to make sure an kernals of tumbler media and brass shavings are removed from the flash holes, then run them through the Dillon with no sizing die in station one so it simply seats the new primer. It's a little extra work, but have been happy with the results.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

However, I'm loading for service rifle in quantity for my son and a couple other juniors. I now set up my Dillon so that the sizing die cams over when I raise the ram to the top. I have too much reloading to do to leave the Dillon behind. I use two diel holders. In the first, I size and trim with a Dillon trimmer. Then I tumble the cases and the boys get to deburr and chamfer (sp? Its too early!). Second die holder starts with a decapping die to clear any tumbling media, then powder charge and seat bullet. This winter, we've had a couple of sessions where one of the other Dad's comes over with his Dillon and we get both presses going with the two die holders. Six of us working can really make some progress in a day. We've been scrounging brass, trying to get ahead while the snow flies. I'd like to check out a Giraud trimmer but the Dillon is on my bench and paid for. And the boys work for free anyway. Its so much fun, its got to be illegal!

[Maury Krupp]

What are you trying to accomplish?

If you're trying to squeeze every sub-sub-MOA out of a particular load disregarding the rifle and shooter as factors in the accuracy equation then do any step that *may* affect that load. Or that you even *think* may affect that load.

If you're trying to improve the performance of a given shooter/rifle/load combination then a bit of at least semi-controlled testing of each step might tell you better what's worthwhile and what isn't.

However, It is my firm belief that the shooter is the weakest link in nearly every combo.

If you can't consistently break a good shot then every minute spent at the loading bench obsessing over making "perfect" ammo instead of at the range practicing with "good enough" ammo is time wasted.

Maury

[Gunner]

We use the Dillon with the Redding dies for the .223 with great succses. There will be no problem with the accuracy. We`ve made also our own shellholderplate for more accuracy for the reason that the original one has this runout. It was wasted time and work, no effect.

Regards

Gunner

[Hefights]

Figured I would not be the only one to notice the runout. I now have rounds sized with the Dillon and in the Rock Chucker press, and will run some side by side bench tests to see if the groups show any difference. Gunner, I was thinking somebody must have fabricated a better fitting shell holder to deal with this, and you confirmed it. I am only shooting informally with this rig, but like to see how accurate it can get. Thanks for the responses.

[S.A. Boggs]

How much is "enough" and when do I accomplish it. Over the years I have watched many shooters drive themselves crazy trying to wring the last bit of accuracy out of their equipment. Accuracy starts between the ears of the person shooting. Are "you" good enough to use that much accuracy, do you train to be a good shooter? Do you smoke, use caffeine in any form, excersie your muscles, get enough sleep? These also relate to accuracy. I have seen guys stand their with a cigarette in one hand, drinking a Coke and then bitch because their rifle won't shoot right. My friend, Bill Large (A founding member of the NMLRA and the guy who built the rifles for Sgt. York, the movie) had us stop drinking any caffine and drink buttermilk instead. It took me a long time to acquire the likeing of buttermilk! Look @ yourself as well as your equipment. I was taught to train as you will fight, this goes the same for shooting.
Sam

[Gunner]

How much is "enough" and when do I accomplish it. Over the years I have watched many shooters drive themselves crazy trying to wring the last bit of accuracy out of their equipment. Accuracy starts between the ears of the person shooting. Are "you" good enough to use that much accuracy, do you train to be a good shooter? Do you smoke, use caffeine in any form, excersie your muscles, get enough sleep? These also relate to accuracy. I have seen guys stand their with a cigarette in one hand, drinking a Coke and then bitch because their rifle won't shoot right. My friend, Bill Large (A founding member of the NMLRA and the guy who built the rifles for Sgt. York, the movie) had us stop drinking any caffine and drink buttermilk instead. It took me a long time to acquire the likeing of buttermilk! Look @ yourself as well as your equipment. I was taught to train as you will fight, this goes the same for shooting.
Sam

Yep, i`ve seen also a lot of shooters wich has the most expensive material and be only a second class shooter. It is like your best sniper(GySgt. C. Hathcock) said: You need three things to be a good shooter practice, practice, practice! When i start shooting with my sniper rifle and Norma ammo i was happy to shoot groups with 1"/100y. Than i started reloading and
by trying different bullets and powders i came down to 9mm with 5 rounds at 100y. Now i changed the dies in extra made ones that fits for my special rifle, i have the best accuracy that i can get out of the material. Now i know that the equipment is 100% ideal. But there was a long way to get the experiences to shoot a very good group at different distances and under nearly each circumstances, normaly. But this is not the succsess of the cases, bullets or the dies, this was only a possiblity of an excessively training, where i spend hundreds of rounds at each distances and at all weatherconditions that i couldt found at the range. So to have a good equipment is important but nothing worth without any skills!

[Hefights]

Hoping not to appear boastful, despite aging and regular sleep deprivation, yet I am a good enough shot to take advantage of accuracy improvements to the ammo, and so is the rifle. The sleep deprivation (for me) will take its toll in endurance, however for the first few strings I can focus & place the shots quite accurately if the ammo and rifle do their part. Occasionally I get lucky and have a good night's sleep before shooting :-)

They make devices to measure bullet runout, and so like other reloaders I measure bullet runout. It remains to be seen at 300 m how much difference
.005 or .006 vs .001 runout makes in a .223 round. I admit to being a bit skeptical as to the significance at that range even with the tackdriving rifle. Also I wonder if the process of being forced down a high quality barrel has a way of straightening the bullet out. Nevertheless do not like seeing a wobbly bullet. Part of the fun in reloading is how well you can make the ammo. For high volume practice or plinking, would not even be having this conversation. Thanks for the input.

[Gunner]

Hefights,

No problem at all!:1948: But why you use a .223 for distances of 300m? The most shooters over here went back from the .223 to the .308, 6mm Norma or the very accurate 6.5x47mm Lapua. Dont know your shooting ranges but at ours it is alwys windy and often rainy at the competitions, and the .223 is always the second choice under this circumstances. The groups open up to more than 4" and if it is rainy they look like a buckshot round. We have targets from the size of 18cm x 18 cm and the inner bull is 1", and you have to place 20 rounds at there.

Regards

Gunner

[Rick from kali]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

[limazulu]

Hoping not to appear boastful, despite aging and regular sleep deprivation, yet I am a good enough shot to take advantage of accuracy improvements to the ammo, and so is the rifle. ...

They make devices to measure bullet runout, and so like other reloaders I measure bullet runout. ... Thanks for the input.

I have a progressive and a rockchucker. I use the rockchucker to decap and swage the primer pockets (the first time). I use the Lee hand primer and have a electronic scale/dispenser for powder so the only thing left is seating the bullet and I use the progressive so I don't have to change dies.

When I seat the bullet, I seat it 1/3 of the way, turn the case 1/3 of the way, seat the bullet another 1/3, turn the case another 1/3 and then seat the last 1/3. A friend who mentioned this way of seating bullets to me used another friends measuring equip. and said runout was very small.

If you have a 1 moa wobble and a 1 moa rifle then getting the rifle to be 1/2 moa would be a good thing to do. If you have 0 moa wobble then a 1 moa rifle is good enough. Being able to read the wind and the light is where the practice has the greatest results IMHO.

[Hefights]

Well, as I said my shooting is solely informal and for fun in this case. While I am a decent shot, the only way this kid will be achieving sub-moa groups at 300m is from a bench with tripod/sandbag rest. My range is in the wild west, but the prevailing wind is usually from behind, pretty much strait at the targets. On a "normal" day, at 300m or less the wind is not too bad. Gunner you make my point, if I am going for sub-moa groups in .223, the ammo better be the best it can be. The 77gr bullet can hold its own pretty well at 300m around here, but admit I am not a "300m pro" like you guys in the Old Country. In any event, when the blizzard goes away, I'll be out there for some thorough testing and we'll see what happens. (FYI, I have .308 and .243 rifles that can do the job too.)

Regarding the Scottish (or Irish) guy in the YouTube video, that was interesting. Did the guy lube anything on those cases other than the necks? Unless there was a good residue of lube in the die already, I would not have tried what he did. Not surprised that the Lee die with no button did better than the Hornady die with a button. For me there is more prep work in setting up the die to ensure good alignment than shown in the video, but a Coax press does have some advantages in that respect. If you check out the design of the Redding bushing competition sizing die, it is superior in many ways. YMMV

[Gunner]

Yes the Redding dies are very good and we use it often over here. I have also a buddy wich makes dies that fits perfectly for your rifle. He is measuring the bullet, the chamber and an empty case( that was shot from your rifle) and makes perfect fitting dies. He made one for my .308 and after seating there was a run out from 0.01mm at the bullet tip. I used a RCBS Competition grade seater before and there was a runout from 0.3mm. the difference in shooting was only to measure from a bench and it makes only 2mm at 100m, but it feels much better to know it. I know that i cant make the difference from a bipod at 300m.
Here is a link to the guy with the dies http://www.triebel-guntools.de/en/click-here-to-go-back-to-the-startpage/

Regards

Gunner

[Hefights]

Gunner, thanks for the link, very impressive equipment, I might like to talk to them some time. I am glad to see that shooting sports appears to be healthy in Germany. I am a "square head", at least in part, my great grandfather escaped the old country in 1860s to get away from Bismark :-) They were from "low Germany", which I think means not far from Holland.

The previous YouTube video provided by Rick in Kali is comparing neck dies, which is why no lube on the case bodies. Neck dies are great, but will not work for semi-auto shooting. For neck dies, those Lee Collet dies do look pretty impressive. I have some Redding and RCBS neck dies for bolt guns, but have not used them in a while.

Limazulu you have some good ideas on how to balance out the inaccuracied in die/stem alignment etc. That would be a good technique for regular dies, but with the Redding competition sizing and seating dies prob not necessary when they are set up properly.

[Gunner]

Hefights,

that was not the badest decision that your grandpa made at this times. German lowland seems to be somewhere between the border to the Netherlands and the Baltic sea we call it the " Flachland" like flat land.:hello:

Regards

Gunner

[Chris W.]

The weak link here seams to me to be the lack of a good trim to the case in my dillon. Can't run .223 through the dillon with the OAL of the cases all over the place. I have the dillon carbide die set, great dies, well worth the price. Find myself sizing off the dillon on my RCBS first, then trimming. I prime with my Lee hand primer. After I have a finished product for a case, then I'll charge the powder and seat with a lite taper crimp in the dillon. This method has cut the size of my groups by 2/3 rds. Well worth the extra trouble. My last run was 6000 rounds, lots of trouble when you extend it to the number loaded, but I don't regret a moment of the time spent.
Chris