Carbine Refinishing - Parkerizing Advice

[mediatech13]

I'm preparing my to ship my carbine to be re-parkerized. The previous owner blued the receiver, barrel, sights, slide and polished the round bolt (Winchester model). The trigger housing assy and front barrel band were left in the original parkerized finish.

Should I ship the trigger housing assy to be re-parkerized or is it common for the receiver and trigger housing not to match in color. I am almost certain the refinishing will come back a different shade on the barrel / receiver.

Advice and comments welcome. Also, suggestions for shops that do this work. I found a couple on gunbroker, but I don't have anything to go on (references) other than phone conversations and website testimonials.

Thanks!

[SMGTPA67]

there are a few shops capable of doing the work, I happen to work at one Bruce Dows shop and i can repark it the correct gray green W.W.2 color.

[Sunray]

When you send any rifle to be re-finished, take out all the springs. Zinc parkerizing does give different shades of grey on different metals though.
"...don't have anything to go on..." It's not impolite to ask for references from any shop.
"...correct gray green..." There's no such thing as gray green parkerizing. The green tinge is the result of long term storage in cosmoline. And nothing more. Parkerizing is black or shades of grey, depending on the chemicals used.

[SMGTPA67]

Sunray, the gray green can be replicated by coating the finished products in cosmoline and baked in an oven at varying temps for a couple of hours.

[jim c 351]

I agree with the above poster about Bruce Dow. He knows more about carbines than 99 percent of the people you will meet.
You can't go wrong with Bruce.
Jim C

[BrianQ]

There's no such thing as gray green parkerizing. The green tinge is the result of long term storage in cosmoline.

That is a myth that just has no basis in reality. The green tint isn't from storage in cosmoline. If it were all the NOS parts still in wrap would have the green tint and they don't.

[landtrain]

NO FLAME!!! Just trying to add a little history. Back in the seventies, Bruce Dow submitted an article to the Carbine Club News Letter describing what parts were parked, blued, or left in the white. Most of us accepted this a valid. Over the years of Carbine of the Month Data Sheet submittals, we now know (or at least think) that a maker that made most of their own parts used the same parkerizing solution for their major parts, thus you might find that Inland had the same color on their barrels, slides, trigger housings while smaller or sub contractor parts were of a different color. As the solution was diluted, it was topped off with fresh mix thus changing the color once again. If your gun has white pins and blue springs, there is no valid evidence to prove them wrong. Assemblies, such as the trigger housing will seldome have the same color thruought a production run. Any one who wants to jump in here and have documentation to the contrary, we will gladly put your evidence in my date base for future reference. I do not use the word " never", when I discuss the M1 Carbine. For a one time park job, have a knowledgable smith do the work, Fulton is as good as any. Tell him to park the big parts and leave the springs and pins in the white. Bolts are almostly blue/black/dulite. Slides are almost always parked. Trigger housings are parked. Internal parts such as firing pins and hammers can be white or blue/black. Band springs are parked, Front sights are mostly parked. Extractor are blue or black/dulite. I thinkl you get the point. I omitted the wood for obvious reasons, This is another book by its's self.Hove this helps.

[Donzi]

That is a myth that just has no basis in reality. The green tint isn't from storage in cosmoline. If it were all the NOS parts still in wrap would have the green tint and they don't.

So how come the guy who works f/Dow says that the achieve the green tint by baking the part in Cosmoline? Just curious.
Donzi

[BrianQ]

You can force the green tint any number of ways. The most common is by the use of dyes.

As the earlier post said "The green tinge is the result of long term storage in cosmoline." Are we to believe every M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, and O3-A3 that has a greenish tint sat in cosmoline for years but the NOS parts that have been exposed to cosmoline for the past 60+ years didn't suffer the same color change.

The WRA carbine pictured below sat crated up at Winchester until it was sold in the mid 1970s. There is not a hint of green color in the finish. So here is a carbine that sat for 30+ years without any green color change. The most likely cause of the green tint was due to the chemicals used in the degreasing process before parkerizing.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/BQ97/_MG_1460.jpg

[chuckindenver]

iv experimented for years with dies, ect, nothing really works.
Winchester used a yellow Chromiate chem in the curing oil for a short time, as did, Remington.
for some onknown reason the stopped using it..thats said to give them the olive green tint.
and some is from being wrapped in cosmoline.. only way to tell one from the other,
cosmoline green will come off with carb cleaner, or brake parts cleaner, rifles will usually be gray below the woodline.
heres what youll find with most restorers of M1,s...
they wont blue the parts that should be blue, or leave some parts in the white..depending on the manufacture, and date.
i use Manganese phosphate, from the same suppliers that US military uses today.
and Blue the Bolt, extractor, hammer, sear, pins, slide latch, sight pin. trigger, and so on.
if they arent dont this way, they look restored, if you know what i meen.
im far from an expert on the M1 Carbine, but know the finishes very well.
iv done more then a few.

[Newscotlander]

1. Some subcontractors of carbine parts applied their own finish while others shipped the parts unfinished and let the prime contractor do it. I know through documentary evidence that Inland was applying the finish to many of it's subcontractors parts (see Carbine Club NL 348, p5-7).

2. By observing the finish on original carbine receivers, it is obvious that the prime contractors were not all using the same type of phosphate finish. One of the easiest to see is Winchester. The light gray finish on Winchester receivers is probably a zinc phosphate finish. On the other hand, Inland is known to have used Parco-Lubrite. Parco-Lubrite is a manganese phosphate finish. Inland receivers that have a phosphate finish are typically a dark green or a dark gray color.

3. Through documentary evidence reported in Newsletter 348, it is known that Inland used a chromic acid rinse after the phosphate application. This was probably done by all the manufacturers. As a matter of fact, the Parker Rustproof Company still uses the chromic acid rinse.

4. It is my opinion that the green color comes from something other than the Cosmoline. What that is, I'm not sure. I have some ideas that I'm not willing to divulge at this point. When I know for sure, I will say.

I have to take this opportunity to top Brian's photo. These are all late manufacture Winchester carbines. You can get a feel for what the original color is supposed to look like. Actually, some of these carbines are Brian's. Notice the carpet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/TheFox/DSC_7275.jpg

[Newscotlander]

Here's a typical Inland phosphate finish.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/TheFox/DSC_8565.jpg

[chuckindenver]

great pics.. if its ok, id like to save them on my PC for referance in the future as a guide.
i noticed the recoil plate screw on the Inland is Black oxide{blue} is that common of an early rifle, or did they mix them through production.?
i also noticed the spring on the flip sight is parkerized,
iv looked at a hundred or so originals and all were blue in color...
i parkerized 20,000 of them for a parts dealer, {repros} and they had blue springs as well. 20,000 sights is a lot, and gave me sore fingers..
to beadblast and assemble every one of them, was a week long chore..

[Newscotlander]

The various prime contractors had different methods of production. They were not all the same.

First, you ask about the recoil plate screw being blued. Early Inland production is characterized by parts which were all or mostly blued (black oxide). By the Spring of 1943 Inland had almost completely changed over to a phosphate finish on its parts. Obviously, there would be a transition period where some parts had a black oxide finish and some parts would have a phosphate finish. The recoil plate screw is just a part that was left over from when Inland was applying the black oxide finish. Later Inland carbines have recoil plate screws with a phosphate finish.

Your next topic is the flip sight leaf spring. At least during the first and second serial number block of Inland production, the finish was applied to the receiver, barrel, barrel band, front sight and rear sight as an assembly. That means that all parts of the assembly will have the same finish. If the barrel is blued, so will be the receiver, rear sight, barrel band, and front sight. The same is true for a phosphate finish. So, in the photo of the Inland, the receiver is Parkerized. Therefore, so will be the rear sight and all it's parts, including the leaf spring. A reminder that this is true of Inland production. Other prime contractors did things differently. So you will find original carbines with blued leaf springs on the rear sight.

There have been several articles in recent Carbine Club newsletters regarding this topic.

[jim c 351]

I have a Inland #28,xxx and used to have a 121,xxx that had a blued (black oxide) barrel and receiver.
On the 28,xxx the finish above wood was weak, but the receiver below wood was clearly blued.
Jim C

[Newscotlander]

The exposed surface of Inland receivers and barrels were grit blasted prior to the apllication of the black oxide or phosphate finish. The top of the receiver will have a less sheen than the bottom of the receiver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/TheFox/154574/DSC_3630.jpg

[chuckindenver]

sorry, i asked about the recoil plate {screw}
nice pic, thats a Du Lite blue..nothing real different, just the name of a company that sells black oxide supplies..
sodium nitrate. amoniom nitrate{no longer used} and another chem, i dont want to say.. i did a lot of research to find it, and it makes my work stand out from the others.
sodium nitrate is now used in place of amonium nitrate..
i try and get them as close to correct as i can, some things just wont be doable, do to the original compound not being available, to the general public.

[mediatech13]

NewScotLander - If you don't mind my asking, what kind of camera equipment are you using for these photos? They are fantastic. Thanks for sharing them.

[Newscotlander]

I have a Nikon D70 with the stock lens (something like 30-70mm). It's a few years old. Nikon now makes a better camera than that for less money. I would say any digital SLR will take good photos. A macro lens would help considerably except everytime I get ready to fork out the $500, another carbine comes along.

BTW. The photo above showing the lustrous blue on the receiver was taken in bright sunlight. The sun did the best job of showing that color.

[Art]

That is a myth that just has no basis in reality. The green tint isn't from storage in cosmoline. If it were all the NOS parts still in wrap would have the green tint and they don't.

This is a subject that won't go away. I recall an article by Scott Duff on this with regard to M1 rifles. He said he had inspected some stored museum grade unissued rifles from World War 2 that had not been stored in cosmoline. According to Duff the finish on all of these weapons was uniform dark charcoal gray park.

More than one refinisher whose work I have read claim that they can obtain the desired gray green tint by coating the parts in cosmoline and warming them up to hurry up the process of ageing them green. I can't imagine they would have a reason to lie

I have also heard from these people that there is no process they know of to produce "green" park simply by phosphating.

Some of these folks also claim that there is no such thing as "dyed" park.

No one has seen an M1 rifle, M1 Carbine etc with a new finish for a half a century because there are no "new finish" rifles anymore. That goes for wood and metal.

With firearms made by commercial companies like Inland Machine, Saginaw Gear, Smith-Corona Typewriter, Remington Rand or any of the others it seems to me that there could be lots of possible variations in finishes.

Chuck in Denver is someone I really respect on this subject and perhaps he will chime in.

[Art]

This is a subject that won't go away. I recall an article by Scott Duff on this with regard to M1 rifles. He said he had inspected some stored museum grade unissued rifles from World War 2 that had not been stored in cosmoline. According to Duff the finish on all of these weapons was uniform dark charcoal gray park.

More than one refinisher whose work I have read claim that they can obtain the desired gray green tint by coating the parts in cosmoline and warming them up to hurry up the process of ageing them green. I can't imagine they would have a reason to lie

I have also heard from these people that there is no process they know of to produce "green" park simply by phosphating.

Some of these folks also claim that there is no such thing as "dyed" park.

No one has seen an M1 rifle, M1 Carbine etc with a new finish for a half a century because there are no "new finish" rifles anymore. That goes for wood and metal.

With firearms made by commercial companies like Inland Machine, Saginaw Gear, Smith-Corona Typewriter, Remington Rand or any of the others it seems to me that there could be lots of possible variations in finishes.

Chuck in Denver is someone I really respect on this subject and perhaps he will chime in.

.....or if I had read more carefully I'd have seen that Chuck already has.

[Newscotlander]

nice pic, thats a Du Lite blue

Du-Lite is a brand name for a black oxide process. I try not to use specific brand names because it can be confusing. In actuality, Inland used a black oxide process called Houghto-Black.


I have also heard from these people that there is no process they know of to produce "green" park simply by phosphating.

The key words here are: "no process they know of"


Some of these folks also claim that there is no such thing as "dyed" park.

Just plain false. A call to the Parker Rustproofing Company will verify that dye is used in some phosphate finishes.

[chuckindenver]

i asked my supplier,,the US military uses them as well.
and right from them....nothing they have, or have seen will turn phoshate green...other then paint..
i know your very versed on Carbines, but i do this every day, and have been refinishing military weapons for a long time.
dark grey, light grey, and black are the colors you can do.
the coating is a chem, reaction to exposed metal, heat, and the mix amount can change the darkness, and thickness of the coating, but iv yet to see anything turn it green, other then smearing brown grease all over the surface, and letting it sit in the sun.
send me a link to Parko Lubrites website, lets see if they have a additive that does this.

[chuckindenver]

heres the hazmat lable for Parko Lubrite 2..
FYI. its the exact same as the companys i use..

============= Composition/Information on Ingredients =============

Ingred Name:MANGANESE (SARA III)
CAS:7439-96-5
RTECS #:OO9275000
Fraction by Wt: 6.5%
OSHA PEL:(C) 5 MG/M3 DUST
ACGIH TLV:5 MG/M3 DUST 9293

Ingred Name:NITRIC ACID (SARA III)
CAS:7697-37-2
RTECS #:QU5775000
Fraction by Wt: 2%
OSHA PEL:2 PPM/4 STEL
ACGIH TLV:2 PPM/4 STEL; 9192
EPA Rpt Qty:1000 LBS
DOT Rpt Qty:1000 LBS

Ingred Name:NICKEL (SARA III)
CAS:7440-02-0
RTECS #:QR5950000
Fraction by Wt: <1%
OSHA PEL:1 MG/M3
ACGIH TLV:1 MG/M3; 9192

Ingred Name:PHOSPHATE, AS PO*4
Fraction by Wt: 27%

Ingred Name:PHOSPHORIC ACID (SARA III)
CAS:7664-38-2
RTECS #:TB6300000
Fraction by Wt: 19%
OSHA PEL:1 MG/M3/3 STEL
ACGIH TLV:1 MG/M3/3 STEL; 9192
EPA Rpt Qty:5000 LBS
DOT Rpt Qty:5000 LBS

[Newscotlander]

Here's the web site: http://www.parkerhq.com/

I actually gave them a call and asked several questions.

Let's not argue over the use of dye in the phosphate finish. I don't believe that is what caused the green color in WW2 rifles or carbines.

Let me ask you though. If the color was caused by cosmoline, wouldn't you think that the green color could be removed with acetone or some other solvent?

[chuckindenver]

i said that in an earlier post.
iv noticed that Green tint above the wood line, usually comes off with Brake parts cleaner and a paper towl.
heres what was told to me, by another supplier..that some phoshate companys used an oil with a yellow cromiate.{spelling} that had heavy metal in it, lead or mercury, i dont remember exactly what he said it was since i wasnt going to get it anyway.
and when they cured the finished metal in this oil, it gave it a yellow green tint.
but that additive was stopped do to the obvious reasons.
tell you what, i have a 1903A3 that i did a bout 3 years ago, and have left it slobbered in Cosmoline, if i take the rifle out and shoot it, i reslobber it up,
ill take it out and shoot some pics..
i did this just to see if the cosmoline myth was fact..
i can tell you, after i wrinse and oil, and assemble, i smear GI rifle grease all over the surface before shipping, seems to darken and make the surface harder.
iv tried just about every bodys trick to get the green tint..from clothing dye, to hair dye, to letting my mix way all the way down so the water and mix is real nasty..
so far, just a bunch of messes, and a waste of good solution..and thats too pricey to waste now.
5 years ago, 50 gal, drum would cost me 400.00 shipped. now the same drum, is 950.00 plus shipping..and thats a deal, every one else wants 1200.00 for a 50 gal drum.
heck, Brownells sells a gallon jug of watered down stuff for 100.00 plus hazmat shipping.
anyway. i think we pretty much agree on the reason for green, if we had a chance to sit down and talk about it.
i appreciate the imput, and the awesome pictures, they wil come in handy to look at for future projects,
im always looking at original guns, and making mental notes as to what parts have what finish, thats a full time job in itself, when you work on just about every US WW2 weapon there is.

[BrianQ]

I refinished this receiver a few years back with a zinc parkerizing solution and a few "extra" chemicials. After the rinse it came out a nice olive color.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg239/BQ97/_MG_1463.jpg

[chuckindenver]

heres the A3 i did about 3 years ago. and it compared to an orginal finish.
with GI rifle grease slobbered all over it.
if you look at the reciever above, you can see the grey below the wood line.
i whiped off the grease on the last pic.
even when i whipe it all the way down for shooting, now it stays olive green.
however, if i clean it with solvent{brake parts cleaner} it turns back grey.