Ammo Question

[gunny]

Head stamp is LC 03 LR, no NATO cross. 20 rd. box says "20 CRTG. 7.62 MM LONG RANGE M118, XM118LR PD.
Round has no case mouth crimp, no primer crimp, HP BT bullet with no cannelure. Case head has no cannelure either. Case of 400 rds says "For Training Use Only, 7.62 MM Cartridge, XM118LR,Lake City Match"

Question is, what does "PD" signify? Probably not "point detonating" :)

[Mark in Rochester]

PD means bulk packaging

read more here: http://www.thegunzone.com/556xm.html

[gunny]

Can't believe I have not seen thegunzone website. The "X" would explain why the ammo has no lot #. Some of the rounds are slightly tarnished which may explain why they did not pass milspec. They shoot MOA out of my super match M1A.

Gunny

[craig beall]

Gunny, the "LR" stands for long range. thats great ammo. it has a 175g Sierra match king bullet in it. very accurate. works very well in M14's and shot a 3/8 inch group with it out of my Rem. 700 PSS. a little hard to get. I've seen it go for 30 / 40 bucks a box.
Craig

[PhillipM]

Abdu I know why it's for training use only. Remember when people in charge didn't know the difference between BTHP target bullets and HP expanding bullets and they made our snipers quit using them? I'll bet even money existing stocks were labeled training use only. Purely a guess though.

[Mark in Rochester]

from: NAVMC 2667
MARINE CORPS DESK TOP DICTIONARY
(LOGISTICS)
(1984 EDITION)

TRAINING USE ONLY IS DEFINED AS AN AMMUNITION ITEM WHICH FUNCTIONS IN A MANNER CONTRARY TO ITS INTENDED DESIGH WITHOUT CONSTITUTING A HAZARD TO PERSONNEL, AND/OR EQUIPMENT WHEN USED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SPCIFIED LIMITATIONS

More Here:http://www.thegunzone.com/556xm.html

[Litt'le Lee]

If they don't shine enough they get kicked out-I have several cans of
LC XM

[Who?]

Abdu I know why it's for training use only. Remember when people in charge didn't know the difference between BTHP target bullets and HP expanding bullets and they made our snipers quit using them? I'll bet even money existing stocks were labeled training use only. Purely a guess though.

All 7.62 match ammo used to be labeled "not for combat use" or "for training purposes only". I was told this was to keep the stuff with uncrimped primers and hollow point bullets out of automatic weapons. It tends to jam them up.

[Mark in Rochester]

XM = contract overrun materal it may not meet all of the mil spec requirements

[Maury Krupp]

I have several boxes of USGI Match ammo (M72, M852, M118, & M118LR). None of it says "For Training Use Only."

The M852 is labeled "Not For Combat Use" because it has a Sierra 168gr MatchKing. Some Pentagon lawyers thought because it had a "hollow point" it was prohibited under the Laws of Land Warfare.

The M118LR also has a "hollow point" 175MK but The Pentagon has since gotten itself a new set of lawyers so it and M852 are both good-to-go for combat now.

The M72 and M118 have a FMJ so that hollow point issue didn't apply to them.

I don't think the US makes any true "match" ammo anymore. All I've seen issued at Pac Fleet is M118LR and Mk262.

Certain lots of M80 Ball and M62 Tracer are labeled "For Overhead Fire Use." Those lots tested better than standard lots and are considered safe to fire over the heads of troops in training without there being a short round or two.

Other types of ammo (eg, Frangible, Gallery, etc) weren't/aren't suited or intended for anything other than "For Training Use Only" and may be marked that way. I've read some Made in Israel ammo bought during a recent US ammo shortage was labeled that way to prevent it being used in the Sandbox and stirring up the natives (as if they weren't stirred up enough already?).

Maury

[noslack 327]

laws of land warfare do not allow for hollow point ammo for use in combat. Tm 43-0001-27. Cartridge 7.62MM: Match, M852. This cartridge is intended and specifically prepared for use in those weapons designated as competitive rifles and also for marksmanship training. Use rifle 7.62MM, M14, National Match. This cartridge is not for combat use. M118 7.62MM special ball. for use with the M14, M21, M24, and M40A1. The M118 Lr is a improved sniper round with a heaver FMJ projectile.

[USSR]

laws of land warfare do not allow for hollow point ammo for use in combat. Tm 43-0001-27. Cartridge 7.62MM: Match, M852. This cartridge is intended and specifically prepared for use in those weapons designated as competitive rifles and also for marksmanship training. Use rifle 7.62MM, M14, National Match. This cartridge is not for combat use. M118 7.62MM special ball. for use with the M14, M21, M24, and M40A1. The M118 Lr is a improved sniper round with a heaver FMJ projectile.

Negatory. The Hague Convention (which the U.S. was not a signatory to, but which we abide by) prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body of soldiers. It says nothing about hollowpoint bullets per se. Since the Sierra MatchKing bullets were not designed to expand (Sierra does not recommend them for hunting), nor do they expand in actual use, they are allowed for use by the U.S. government. The M118LR round uses the 175gr Sierra MatchKing bullet, which is a HPBT and not a FMJ projectile.

Don

[gunny]

I think we can agree that PD is "bulk packed". "XM" is probably contract over run and/or not milspec because it is slightly tarnished. "For Training Use Only"?
The ammo is not suitable for ALL weapons in this caliber...no primer or bullet crimp.
I have the following ammo:
XM193AF...900 rds in stripper clips, 30 rds/box in a Federal shipping box
XM193......500 rds in 20 rd boxes in a Federal shipping box(American Eagle)
XM855...1000 rds loose in a Federal shipping box
XM856...500 rds in 20 rd boxes in a Federal shipping box(American Eagle)
XM855...500 rds in 20 rd boxes in a Federal shipping box(American Eagle)
XM118LR...800 rds in 20 rd boxes NOT in a Federal shipping box

[Maury Krupp]

laws of land warfare do not allow for hollow point ammo for use in combat.
Actually, what is forbidden under the US Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) is "... to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering..."

The Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets of 29 July 1899 (which the US did not sign but kinda-sorta incorporates into its LOAC) forbids the use "...of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions."

This is where the lawyers come in.

When the 168MK first came out in the late 1950s-early '60s the first knee-jerk JAG opinion was hollow point = expanding bullet; expanding bullet + Hague Declaration = forbidden (ie, Not For Combat Use)

Later, around 1985 people who actually knew something about how bullets are made and behave weighed in. These people understood the point of MatchKing bullets is not a "hollow point" "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" but rather a result of drawing the jacket from back to front in order to produce the best boat-tail for long range accuracy. They knew such a tip acts the same as a closed tip FMJ on impact. Especially when compared to hunting bullets that *are* designed to "expand or flatten."

In light of this and the actual wording of the US version of the LOAC the JAG was told to take another look.

The result was a new opinion that says MatchKings and similar bullets are OK for combat.

IIRC, a few years ago there was a slight dust-up when some JAG advised a commander that the old opinion still applied. That JAG officer was subsequently given some referesher training.

Maury

[medic2264]

IIRC any ammo with the XM prefix is reject lot ammo. If it is in boxes bad but not that bad. If packed loose bad to very bad, usually swept up off the floor at the ammo plant. Many shooters using the XM-193 5.56mm ammo had lots of popped primers and some rounds were well above the pressure load of a proof round.

Have not heard to much about the XM 7.62 stuff, I just started to see it on the market lately.

[gunny]

The "XM" has has the Federal name and a lot # on it. Liability would come into play if there was anything remotely wrong with the ammo. The XM118LR has proven consistantly reliable (over 300 rds) and accurate (1MOA) in my M1A. I don't believe Federal or the re-seller would put themselves in a position for a possible law suite by marketing any ammo that was remotely questionable. IMHO
Gunny

[Griff Murphey]

I shot a deer one time about 1970, 20 year old eyes; offhand at 200 yards, with my prehistoric Ballance-welded M-1A built on a shortened M-1 receiver; 168 gr. Sierra international BTHP, lung shot. Spectacular destruction. My mom was in the jeep with my dad and myself and she had to avert her eyes. Another time made a diaphragm-level hit on a running deer, not good. The jacket stripped off superficially and the lead core did about like an FMJ. These are definitely NOT game bullets and should not be used as such; as far as military use I'm not sure but I think it would also be iffy. Any of our guys they capture it's curtains anyway, even if they are unarmed.

[P. Greaney]

M262 was originally a match round. It was the heaviest bullet they could get that produced a cartridge that was magazine length. The original contract was to Black Hills.
During the initial activities in Afghanistan the Spec War operators who knew about the heavier 77 grain bullet and the accuracy of the round over longer distances requested it be sent to them. They expected it would be more effective against human targets due to the heavier bullet. There were complaints of hitting targets and them not going down. with the standard ball round with the 62 grain bullet.
Speculation was the amount of clothing these guys were wearing affected the effectiveness of the bullet.
So, the round was modified by crimping the primer to ensure proper operation in automatic weapons.
M262, the original cartridge with uncrimped primer intended for across the course competition.
Current designations are as follows:
M262 mod (0) uncrimped primer intended for match use.
M262 mod (1) crimped primer intended for combat use and also use in matches.
FFC East this year,mod (1) was issued for competition and also for the all Navy East.
mod (1) was also issued for the National Matches to the Navy shooters.

[John Kepler]

laws of land warfare do not allow for hollow point ammo for use in combat. Tm 43-0001-27. Cartridge 7.62MM: Match, M852. This cartridge is intended and specifically prepared for use in those weapons designated as competitive rifles and also for marksmanship training. Use rifle 7.62MM, M14, National Match. This cartridge is not for combat use. M118 7.62MM special ball. for use with the M14, M21, M24, and M40A1. The M118 Lr is a improved sniper round with a heaver FMJ projectile.

Your info is out-of-date by a decade or so. In 1994, the JAG ruled that the hollow-point in match bullets was an "artifact of construction", not a "functional feature" that caused "unnecessary suffering" prohibited by the 1907 Hague and US Combat Rules, and approved the M852, M118LR, and the various improvements in .223 ammo for "limited combat use". The World Court concurred with the JAG later that year.

HP Match bullets have issued for combat ever since....my son had 77 gr match ammo issued to him in Afghanistan. BTW, M118LR does NOT have an FMJ bullet....that was the older M118 "Special Ball"...the current M118LR has a 175 gr Sierra MK BTHP.

[TomSudz]

The no 118 LR flap happened in 2005, I think. A lawyer somewhere in-country saw the dimple and thought it was a hollow point. From what I understand, it took someone from the sniper school at Benning to come over and talk to the lawyers before they decided it wasn't a hollow point. In the meantime, the shooters in-country were out of work, so to speak.