Stacked Krags photo

[Liam]

Not sure when this was taken. Guessing some time early WWI.

This forum's software automatically reduces large imagery, so if you wish to see the full size, see this link: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/16/article-1236319-079B4E83000005DC-570_964x612.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u23/Liam_068/article-1236319-079B4E83000005DC-57.jpg

[kragluver]

That picture has made the rounds. There are several of (apparently) the same group of soldiers in London taken in 1917 shortly before they shipped across the channel to France.

[Griff Murphey]

Engineers? Stevadores? Certainly a diverse looking group of men, physically. Second from right looks like he would not make the weight standards, today (like me) but he looks as strong as an ox. Notice the old style canteens. Obviously NOT a first-line unit.

[Dan Shapiro]

Wonder if they weren't part of the large workforce (Service of Supply) sent over to, IIRC, LeHarve as there was a big bottleneck of US supplies stacking up there.

[kragluver]

This may be an Engineering unit. There is documented evidence that a group of Krag-armed engineers came under German fire in November 1917.

[mack]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but why, I wonder, are there no rank stripes on their uniforms or clothing. Makes me think these may not be soldiers, but perhaps civilians hired and outfitted with leftovers from Spanish-American campaigns. Perhaps to do some non-combatant task??

Just conjecture, but clearly something is not right here.

:grommit:

[kragluver]

I've noticed in pictures of my G-grandfather from WW1, that the day-to-day uniforms of the time did not carry rank insignia unless perhaps it was on the color. Dress uniforms did have rank stripes, but the woolen blouses must not have.

Ah-ha! I just read an online article about the Doughboy's uniform - rank insignia for enlisted men were worn on the right sleeve only to save material! Therefore, you wouldn't see insignia in the photo above. I learn something new every day...

[Michaelp]

Our army was a pretty hastily assembled bunch.
I'd expect most anything is possible.

Both my grandfathers were "over there."

[John Sukey]

I believe these guys were the first troops to land in France. an advance unit supposed to prepare the facilities for the rest.
Given their equipment, they could have just as easily been taken in Cuba during the Spanish Amrican war. Note the canteens.

[5MadFarmers]

Oddly the canteens aren't a good gauge. The adoption of the 1910 canteen was not initially real successful. It was also later, much later, than the model designator would imply. Initial deliveries in quantity was in 1912, I have the date and quantity around here somewhere, from AGM. Then there was a "delay" as RIA worked out how to make them. AGM spun them but RIA couldn't make them that way. It took some time for them to get welding of aluminium functioning. Three editions (not two as commonly accepted) were made of the covers early on but the mounted edition didn't work well. That was rectified with the '17 edition but we're straying.

Round canteens were still in heavy use right into WW1. RIA made covers for them as late as 1914 and perhaps later.

Add to that the delay in providing gear to the National Guard and it just gets all spacial. The various manuals of the time address troops equipped with the 1910 pattern equipment and the "old style" equipment.

Budgets weren't anything to write home about in the early teens.

I suspect what is pictured there are National Guard troops activated and attached to the 1st Infantry Division. Engineers. If I recall the original is clearer and the Engineer castle can be seen on their collars but maybe I'm misremembering that. It was taken in London when the 1st ID arrived - that I remember from the set of photos of the parade which that was taken from.

[Rick the Librarian]

As I recall, no National Guard units were attached to the Big Red One in WWI. A large percentage were "rookies" however. The first National Guard units in France were those of the 26th Division (NG units from the New England states).

[rayg]

All early equipment. Also 1903 pattern suspenders and from what I can see, 1903 cartridge belts. Does look like a guard unit activated, Ray

[5MadFarmers]

As I recall, no National Guard units were attached to the Big Red One in WWI. A large percentage were "rookies" however. The first National Guard units in France were those of the 26th Division (NG units from the New England states).

Well, technically no National Guard units were in WW1. Zero. Not a single soldier.

The National Defense Act of 1916 "created" the National Guard. When war was declared the army "activated" the National Guard, discharged them, then drafted them. At that point they were "national army."

The 1st and 2nd divisions were tossed together from what was available. Hence the USMC being in an army division. Support units were pulled from the "former" National Guard. Somebody had to work the railroads, supply dumps, etc. The Regular Army didn't have the troops for that.

[rayg]

I had looked it up before and I recalled the Guard was officially formed in 1903. I just re-checked and here is the info, again via From Wikipedia, Ray

20th century
Throughout the 19th century the regular Army was small, and the militia provided the majority of the troops during the Mexican-American War, the start of the American Civil War, and the Spanish-American War. In 1903, part of the militia was federalized and renamed the National Guard and organized as a Reserve force for the Army. In World War I, the National Guard made up 40 percent of the U.S. combat divisions in France. In World War II the National Guard made up 19 divisions. One hundred forty thousand Guardsmen were mobilized during the Korean War and over 63,000 for Operation Desert Storm. They have also participated in U.S. peacekeeping operations in Somalia, Haiti, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bosnia, and Kosovo as well as for natural disasters, strikes, riots and security for the Olympic Games when they have been in the States.

[Dick Hosmer]

Ray,

While I LOVE Wikipedia, and go there all the time, it should be kept in mind that ANYONE (from "bubba" to the most distinguished PhD) can post/edit there, and the info must be looked at in that light - don't EVER bet the farm, solely on the basis of Wikipedia. I have given up trying to tweak some of the firearms entries.

5MF, however, is quoting from official, contemporary, U.S. Government documents. I'm not saying he is infallible, but he is probably the best, certainly the most tenacious, researcher I have ever encountered.

[5MadFarmers]

I had looked it up before and I recalled the Guard was officially formed in 1903. I just re-checked and here is the info, again via From Wikipedia, Ray

20th century
Throughout the 19th century the regular Army was small, and the militia provided the majority of the troops during the Mexican-American War, the start of the American Civil War, and the Spanish-American War. In 1903, part of the militia was federalized and renamed the National Guard and organized as a Reserve force for the Army. In World War I, the National Guard made up 40 percent of the U.S. combat divisions in France. In World War II the National Guard made up 19 divisions. One hundred forty thousand Guardsmen were mobilized during the Korean War and over 63,000 for Operation Desert Storm. They have also participated in U.S. peacekeeping operations in Somalia, Haiti, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bosnia, and Kosovo as well as for natural disasters, strikes, riots and security for the Olympic Games when they have been in the States.

Oy, we're going to pick legal nits here. You wrote:


I recalled the Guard was officially formed in 1903

Just for giggles I'll point you to wikipedia over that....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903

Notice it's the "Militia Act of 1903" - better known as the Dick Act.

From inception to 1916 it was the State Militia. I'm aware that units called themselves various things (NGP = National Guard Pennsylvania) but they were State Militia.

Let's go to a better source:
http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/168.html

Federal archives. This set:


168.3 Records of the Militia Division and the Division of Militia Affairs, 1903-16

Militia Division. Because they interfaced with the Militia. Per the Militia Act of 1903. Yes, I'm getting pedantic Followed by:


168.4 Records of the National Guard Bureau and its Predecessors, the Militia Bureau and the National Guard Bureau (War) 1916-74

After 1916 it's National Guard.

Now let's go the the current National Guard people in the army:

http://www.arng.army.mil/aboutus/history/Pages/ConstitutionalCharteroftheGuard.aspx


The Dick Act, 1903 affirmed the National Guard as the primary organized reserve force.

Between 1903 and the 1920's, legislation was enacted that strengthened the Army National Guard as a component of the national defense force. The Dick Act of 1903 replaced the 1792 Militia Act and affirmed the National Guard as the Army's primary organized reserve.

The National Defense Act, 1916 guaranteed the State militias as the primary reserve force; gave the President the authority to mobilize the Guard during war or national emergency; made use of the term "National Guard" mandatory; authorized drill pay for the first time

Yes, they mix their terminology by stating the Dick Act "affirmed the National Guard." That's not the bit we're after. It's that "made the use of the term "National Guard" mandatory" bit.

We'll go back to wikipedia for the next bit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Act_of_1916


"The President was also given authority, in case of war or national emergency, to mobilize the National Guard for the duration of the emergency."

That is the key bit. They were no longer State Militia as the President now controlled them in time of war and were called the National Guard. Once Congress declared war the President could do what he wanted with them.

I'm at work. Lunch. If you'd need it I can dig the appropriate part out of the National Defense Act of 1916 when I get home. Also the General Order (August of 1917 - think it's 70 off the top of my head) where they were discharged and drafted.

Just for giggles - the end result:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C06E1DA1339E13ABC4D51DFB4678383 609EDE

When discharged, and drafted, they no longer had any obligation to the State. Because they were federal troops. After the war they were free to not go back to the State units. Because those were gone.

So kind of confusing. The 1903 act clearly was aimed at the "Militia." The 1916 act made them the "National Guard" and gave the president authority over them. The general order of August 1917 discharged them. Then drafted them. While they called them "National Guard" past that point it was legal fiction. They were discharged and drafted.

Drafting them allowed the army to make those perfect numerical units. Each division had 2 brigades of 2 regiments. Nicely numbered. The State Militia unit numbers were nuked. Over 100 years of history vaporized due to supremacy of the army. 17th New York? Gone.

Side note, and I'll have to dig this out, they had collar buttons for the State troops. NA over-stamped US for National Army. I think it was Bliss who, late in the war, remarked that there was only "one United States Army." Going forward he was going to nuke those NG and NA buttons.

Legal nits. I stand by what I claimed.

[rayg]

I'm sure you are more knowledgable in this matter then I am. But what was the 1903 act, As I read that act created the name "National Guard" which from what I understood, was the birthday of the name, National Guard as it changed the name from state militia to National Guard and gave the President the power to call the Organized Militia--that is, what is now the National Guard--into federal service for up to nine months' service and from that time on, the name was National guard and not militia. And apparenty all but one state by 1916 changed their name to "National Guard".
None of the links you show provide any info different from that unless I'm not interpeting correctly. I found the 1916 act only set the number of guards to 450,000 and also addressed the ROTC, is there more to the 1916 act I'm not finding? Ray

[5MadFarmers]

It's not a big deal.

The name "National Guard" was in use well before 1903. Again, NGP was National Guard of Pennsylvania and that had been in use for years. The mandatory change of name from "State Militia" to "National Guard" took place via the National Defense Act of 1916 as, prior to that date, they could have called themselves "Tennessee's Terrible Troops" or whatever they wanted. The 1916 act mandated the term "National Guard." It was a federal mandate.

The regular army unit which interfaced with them reflected that - it was "Militia Affairs" until 1916. Then "National Guard Affairs."

The act of 1916 reorganized the army and made the "militia" the "national guard." It forbade the states from raising their own troops outside of the national guard and set numbers they could keep.

Some states attempted, unsuccessfully, to create "state guard" troops.

This may be of service:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9505E6DB133BE03ABC4852DFB166838C 609EDE

In 1916 the militia ceased to exist.

[rayg]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, it still looks like the 1903 act created the National Guard which was authorized to be used as a national reserve unit subject to call of the president, hence the term "National Guard". The 1916 act was just a by product of the 1903 act.
It seems to me that then, this was the date that the National Guard was officially created/formed by legistration. Also I'm reading that the 1916 act was just a by product of the 1903 act.
And if that was the case, no state unit was officially a government National Guard unit subject to direct presidental authority until that 1903 act.
Of course I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I might be reading it all wrong. I've done that before, LOL. Ray

[5MadFarmers]

Let's approach it from the basis of "National" versus "State" as that is really the difference between the Guard and the Militia. The basis of the army is Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution:

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years"

The Militia is covered just a bit later:

"To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;"

Army troops take a Federal oath. Militia troops don't - they take an oath to their states. The Militia cannot serve outside of the US - the Army (and National Guard) can. Yes, the 1903 act, amended in 1908, intended for the Militia to be able to serve outside of the US but the Attorney General's reading of the Militia reference in the Constitution resulted in the opinion that they couldn't. It's not listed in the 3 purposes in that "execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions." Hence the "volunteers" system.

Prior to 1916 the Militia:
1) Was under state control.
2) Served in units the size and composition of which were determined by the state.
3) Were armed and equipped by the state. Yes, the feds provided arms and equipment if they met certain conditions set by the feds but the ultimate responsibility was with the states.
4) Took an oath to their state.
5) Were not "part of the army" of the US.
6) Served terms dictated by the State.
In other words they were Militia and "loaned" to the feds in an emergency. They were Militia.

The 1916 act reorganized the army. After that act the Militia troops weren't Militia anymore - they were part of the army. They took a federal oath. Given that they were part of the army, and no longer militia, they could serve overseas. The federal government was responsible for arming and equipping them. The state could not determine the size or composition of the troops.

Up until 1916 they were Militia.
After 1916 they were part of the army. The "National Guard."

In addition to making them a component of the army, the 1916 act forbade the States from raising any other troops. Yes, I'm aware of the State Guard attempts.

The militia died in 1916. The "state troops" were part of the army after the act of 1916. Not before.

[rayg]

Here's a long read but if you read it, you will find that National Guard units already existed in the states prior to the 1916 act.
The 1916 act just reorganized the The Army and Guard and "the president was to determine both the number and type of National Guard units that each state would maintain".

http://www.history.army.mil/books/Lineage/m-f/chapter2.htm


Militia, or National Guard, units had dual missions. Each served its state of origin but, when called upon, also served in national emergencies. Under the Dick Act of 1903, National Guard units had five years to achieve the same organizational standards as the Regular Army units. To accomplish that goal, the federal government increased the funds for arms and equipment and annual training and provided additional Regular Army officers to assist with training. 13



TABLE 1
National Guard Infantry Divisions, 1914

Division District
5th Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Vermont,
Rhode Island, and Connecticut
6th New York
7th Pennsylvania
8th Delaware, New Jersey, Maryland, District of Columbia, Virginia, and West Virginia
9th North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, and Georgia
10th Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Kentucky
11th Michigan and Ohio
12th Illinois and Indiana
13th Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Iowa
14th Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, and Wyoming
15th Arkansas, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana
16th California, Oregon, Montana, Utah, Idaho, Nevada, and Washington

[32]

Proposed legislation based on the policy statement, which was dubbed the "Continental Army" plan, quickly ran into congressional opponents who were unwilling to abandon the National Guard. But the debate led eventually to the National Defense Act of 1916. The new act provided that the "Army of the United States" would consist of the Regular Army, the Volunteer Army, the Officers' Reserve Corps, the Enlisted Reserve Corps, the National Guard in the service of the United States, and such other land forces as were or might be authorized by Congress. The president was to determine both the number and type of National Guard units that each state would maintain. Both the Regular Army and the National Guard were to be organized, insofar as practicable, into permanent brigades and divisions. Command echelons above divisions reverted to army corps and armies, the traditional command system; no mention was made of independent field armies directly controlling divisions. Undoubtedly the war in Europe, which involved large armies, caused the staff to revert to that system. To resolve the long-standing question of whether Guard units could be used outside the United States, the law empowered the president to draft units into federal service under certain conditions. Men in drafted units would be discharged from state service and become federal troops subject to employment wherever needed. Congress continued to dictate regimental organizations. 56

[5MadFarmers]

7. There are, therefore, in the service of the United States, under the call of June 18, 1916, two classes of militia: one the militia organized under the Dick bill, and the other the National Guard as organized under the National Defense act. With respect to those who have not qualified under the National Defense act, their status is identical with that of the organized militia of the States of Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, which is discussed above. The status of those who have qualified under the National Defense act is that of National Guard called as such into the service of the United States' (Sec. 101, National Defense act,) and they are, while in services, 'subject to the laws and regulations governing the regular army' so far as applicable to their temporary status, and are subject only to the orders of the President. They are not, while in such service, under the jurisdiction of the State, nor are they subject to the orders of the Governor, whose authority over them for the time being suspended, except only with the respect to the appointment of officers within the classes specified in the National Defense act of June 3, 1916. They are not a part of the regular army of the United States, nor are they subject to the regular army term of service.


Response of Brig. Gen. Enoch H. Crowder, Judge Advocate General of the Army, July 29th, 1917.

[rayg]

Here's another one.

The Militia Act of 1903 organized the various state militias into the present National Guard system. The Army National Guard is part of the United States Army, comprising approximately one half of its available combat forces and approximately one third of its support organization. The Air National Guard is part of the United States Air Force.

http://www.search.com/reference/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

There was only a re-organization in the 1916 act. The Gruard had already been created.

[5MadFarmers]

Search.com?


"In the meantime, the National Defense Act had been approved June 3, 1916, providing, among other things, for the transition of the Organized Militia of the several States and the District of Columbia into the National Guard, by taking the oath prescribed by that act, and this transition was in progress in the several States when the call of June 18 was made. The call of the President found the militia at the very beginning of its transition from the Organized Militia, provided in the early legislation, into the National Guard, provided by the recent National Defense Act."

Annual Report of the Secretary of War (1916). Vol 1, page 12. Top of page.

Don't know what else to tell you Ray. Until 1916 they were legally the Organized Militia. After that they were legally the National Guard. Militia, per the 1912 opinion, can't serve overseas. National Guard can.

Didn't matter. In WW1 they were legally drafted. In WW2 it did as they weren't.

[5MadFarmers]

Actually I'm going to stray that just a bit further. Doesn't matter but I find it interesting and, being collectors of US gunk, you might also.

I came across that "the troops were drafted" via the Iowa National Guard pages a few years ago. It was something of an involved process with a sad ending. I started with the WW2 45th division. I decided to take all the various divisions in WW2 and track the unit formations. The numbers of the regiments during WW2 were a mess. So I created 3 different "sets" of numbers showing the transition. The three sets were:
1) Initial numbers during WW1.
2) Transition after they cleaned the mess up after WW1
3) WW2 organization.

When they created the divisions for WW1 they did so in a mathematically precise manner. I'll paste parts of the WW1 table but the formatting will get messed up:


Division Infantry Brigade Infantry Regiments Machine Gun Battalion Field Artillery Brigade Field Artillery Regiments Trench Mortar Battalion Machine Gun Battalion Engineer Regiment Field Signal Battalion Train HQ & MP Ammunition Train Supply Train Engineer Train Sanitary Train Ambulance Companies & Field Hospitals

1 1 16 2 1 5 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2
18 6 3
2 26 3 7 12
28 13

2 3 9 5 2 12 2 4 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 1
23 15 15
USMC 4 5 6 17 16
USMC 6 23



They kept the regimental numbers of the regular army. So it's kind of a mess. Those were numbered 1-25.

Next up were the "National Guard" units. Those were created from scratch (I'm aware of the very short lived 15 NG divisions before this organization). Again, formatting will get messed up:


26 51 101 102 103 51 101 101 101 101 101 101 101 101 101 101
102 101 102
52 103 102 103
104 104

27 53 105 105 52 104 102 104 102 102 102 102 102 102 102 105
106 105 106
54 107 106 106 107
108 108

28 55 109 108 53 107 103 107 103 103 103 103 103 103 103 109
110 108 110
56 111 109 109 111
112 112

29 57 113 111 54 110 104 110 104 104 104 104 104 104 104 113
114 111 114
58 115 112 112 115
116 116


Even messed up the "cleanness" of it is clear. Each infantry division received 2 brigades. Each brigade received 2 regiments. So one can calculate the brigade and infantry regiment number for each division. In cleaner form: 26ID gets 51&52 IB, with the 101, 102, 103, and 104 IRs. NG division numbers were 26-75

The national army was likewise created from scratch. So mathematically precise. Let's take the 86th ID. 86ID gets 171&172 IB. With the 341,342,343, and 244 IRs.

Each division received machine gun battalions and artillery along with other stuff. Again, the regulars didn't get clean numbers but the other two did. Given 3 Field Artillery Brigades to the division, the numbers can be calculated in 3s. The F.A.B.s for the 86th were the 331, 332, 333.

All the sub-units were numbered in that exacting format.

After WW1 they had to mess it up. Units from the "wrong" geographical areas had been put with other units. So some infantry guys from West Virginia would be in the same division as Field Artillery guys from, say, Maine. They moved the regiments and other units around in the early 1920s. At the start of WW2 they "triangularized" the divisions. Then it gets kind of messy.

The next step was to determine which State units were blended into the WW1 divisions. That is when I discovered it didn't really happen. They drafted the guys and just kind of banged them into those new divisions. With limits. One can in fact trace the old Militia units and where they ended up. As a rule, the following applies:

3 of the Militia regiments would be merged into 2 of the NG regiments.
The "cavalry" part of the Militia units were split with some forming the Machine Gun battalions and the excess going into the Infantry Regiments.

Which answered the question: "what happened to all of those Militia cavalry troops?" Most became machine gunners.

When I found how the Militia units were broken up I gave up. There is no "proper lineage" as they "disbanded" the Militia units and created the NG formations from scratch. I made a good attempt but it's fiction.

__________________

A couple of trivia oddities from all of that.

Firstly, the 82nd and 101st are "National Army" division numbers. They "migrated" to the regular army which was designed to have divisions numbered 1-25.

Secondly. The AmeriCal division was formed outside of the US in WW2. In New Caledonia (hence the name). It was "unnumbered" during WW2. After the war it received a number. When the divisions were "triangularized" for WW2 each division "lost" a regiment (from 4 to 3) and they nuked the brigades. Some of those "lost" regiments stayed lost during WW2. The AmeriCal division was made by slamming 3 "lost" NG regiments together.

The "Hawaii" division was spit into the 24th and 25th IDs. Two regiments each with an NG "lost" regiment added to each to bring them to 3.

_______________

Last trivia point on this. The 32nd Infantry Division was rushed to Australia early in WW2 as the Japanese were threatening. The Australians had a similar organization to the US in that they had regulars and "militia" style troops. By law the Australian "militia" troops couldn't serve outside Australia. So they couldn't "leave" Australian territory yet our NG 32nd Division was defending them in New Guinea.

But this has nothing to do with Krags.

Unrelated but you might find it interesting. Kind of big....

Image made into link (http://www.5madfarmers.com/ww1div.png)

Image turned into link as it's too wide.

[rayg]

This was fun...
One last thing before I hang up my spurs.
The 1916 act did seperate the National Guard from the milita as only those designated by the 1916 act were then truly Federal National Guard units. The rest remained Militia.
However many of those units so designated were already National Guard units and were only re-organized and given Federal assignment under that act.
I believe, as you said, as they were called up during WWI they were sworn into full federal service so they were not Guard units anymore, Ry

[5MadFarmers]

Not a big deal. How about we say that in 1898 they discovered a problem with throwing a foreign adventure party and not leaving it to the USMC? Inconvenient having an army designed to ride horses around reservations when what was really needed was an army designed to take tropical vacations. The Marines were already familiar with that....

Two additional resources for those that care.

"The Military Policy of the United States" by Major General Emory Upton. They published it as War Department Document (WDD) 290. The edition that I have was printed in 1911. Very dry so it was pretty inexpensive.

The other is WDD 516 - Militia as organized under Constitution and its value to nation as military asset. 1916.

If one wants to know how bad the army wanted the Militia gone, a quick read of that last WDD is instructive.

What would have amused me is if the USMC had done to the army what the army did to the Militia.

[Plain Old Dave]

OK, questions from a confused Sailor:

What was the deal with the Southwest that they were not considered 'equal' with the other States' National Guards?


I know we're dealing with the Army here and this probably is too common sense for the Army to ever consider, but why not do what we did on the blue side in the immediate pre-WW1 era and disband the entire mess and make all the old State Guards, Militias, and National Guards into US Army Reserve units?

[5MadFarmers]

Because the Militia units had been activated into federal service off and on since the Mexican border problems. Starting in April some of the units were activated and some not.

Can you imagine the legal nightmare that the 1916 act created?

Let's imagine Private Young Dave. He enlisted in the Texas Militia in 1915 for a term of 4 years. When he enlisted he was handed a series of manuals printed by the War Department. They are as follows:

WDD-338 "Provisional small arms firing manual for Army and organized militia of United States" - 1909
WDD-365 "Regulations for organized militia under Constitution and laws of United States" - 1910
WDD-462 "Tables of organization, organized militia, 1914, peace" - 1914
WDD-476 "Manual for noncommissioned officers and privates of infantry of organized militia and volunteers of United States, 1914" - 1914
There are others.

So Private Young Dave enlisted in the Militia and the War Department is aware of that. He had no "federal" obligation outside of being activated for a limited time into federal service. Said service couldn't send him outside of the US.

In 1916 they pass an act making the National Guard part of the Army. The militia is no more really. As part of that act, if he is "activated" but doesn't show up he can be court martialed. By what authority? He had no "contract" with the army. They want to assign him to a unit and send him to France. When he enlisted in the militia it was well understood that he couldn't be sent outside of the US. 100 years of tradition (precedent) stated that when the feds needed troops they took "volunteers" and the militia troops were allowed to do that. What if he didn't want to? What if he refused to take the oath?

War was declared in April. They needed to send the troops to France. How to get around the fact that the Militia troops had "contracts" with the Militia but not the "new National Guard?"

They activated them, discharged them, and drafted them. Problem solved. Unfair? Life is unfair.

From April to June of 1917 the legal ramifications were being reviewed. They took the easy way out. Any enlistments after the act was passed weren't a problem. Those prior to the act were. They solved it. Incidentally I'm not making it up - some troops from Massachusetts challenged it.

"Why" the national guard and not just having reserves? Because the Governors weren't happy with the 1916 act. They had the power to appoint officers. They used the N.G. for state uses (disasters, etc). So they were losing control of their militia. The N.G. was a compromise.

I'm not a lawyer but the 1912 review of the 1903/08 act determined that the Militia couldn't serve outside the US. The 1916 act forbade the states from having any troops outside of the N.G.. Given the Constitutional reference to the Militia, I don't think that part of the 1916 act would pass Constitutional muster either.

If it helps, the Navy messed up big time too. They stopped issuing the Letters of Marque. Were is the fun in that?

[5MadFarmers]

I think I can make what Ray and what I am trying to get across clear if I skip the references and just use Little Dave. I should probably just let this drop but I'm going to do it any way.

Let's imagine that you are pretty big. Big enough to grab somebody by the collar and seat of the pants and throw them clear to France. We're going to throw Little Dave to see what he is.

Little Dave enlists in the "Organized Militia." He is "activated" for federal service and you wish to call him "National Guard." Ok, throw him to France. He bounces off an invisible barrier at the edge of New York state. Why? Because, regardless of what you call him and what uniform you put on him, he is "Organized Militia." That invisible barrier is the Constitution and it states that the "Organized Militia" cannot serve overseas. You can put any uniform on him and call him whatever you wish. We'll see what he really is when you chuck him towards France. If he was Navy, USMC, Army, or a "Volunteer" he'd clear the Atlantic. If he is Organized Militia he'll bounce. Calling him "National Guard" is a legal fiction - he's "Organized Militia."

Let's fast forward to 1919. Now he's wearing the uniform of the "National Guard." Give him a throw. He clears the Atlantic. He's "National Guard." If he was "Organized Militia" he'd still bounce as that legal barrier has never dropped. Calling him "Organized Militia" is a legal fiction as he cleared the barrier.

Let's now imagine that it's 1912. You wish to station troops along the Mexican border but don't have enough. So you "call to federal service" the Organized Militia of Oregon. Send them to the border. They're in federal service and thus the "National Guard" right? Try to get them to cross the border. They can't - same barrier. The "Organized Militia" cannot cross that border. Calling them "National Guard" is a legal fiction as they're "Organized Militia." Whereas there is no law that Oregon Organized Militia cannot leave the border of Oregon, they cannot cross the national border. If you want to determine whether they are "Organized Militia" or not - throw them. They'll bounce. Like the bumble in Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer.

Ray, I do understand what you are saying. The 1903 act was intended for the "Organized Militia" to be a "National Guard" when activated for federal service. What I've said is that the NGP (National Guard of Pennsylvania) was called National Guard well before 1903. It doesn't really make them the "National Guard" though as they are legally "Organized Militia." They bounce.

I can't get any clearer than that.

[jon_norstog]

5MF,

This is getting pretty good. I'm learning some s**t. What do you think is the relationship between "organized militia" and the "militia" referred to in the 2nd? One and the same? Different animals?

jn

[5MadFarmers]

Militia was basically everybody of "military age" from which a pool of "soldiers" can be formed. It was originally all male citizens from 18 to 45 years of age and non-citizen males of the same age who had declared an intention to become citizens. Whether blacks were included isn't something I know - I'm not a lawyer. I suspect subsequent amendments have expanded that to include females but I don't know that either. The militia had "organized" and "unorganized" - the organized being in a unit of some sort.

State ability to legislate the militia pre-dated the Constitution but it's considered a creature of the federal government - the states never lost that right as established by some cases very early on.

The reality, as discovered by the Germans circa 1945, is that pretty much everybody is "militia." Depends on the threat I guess.

So if the mounties pour across your northern border grab your musket and repel said invasion. Given the "have to wear a uniform" requirements of later treaties (Hague, etc) you might want to put on a bowling uniform with "Idaho Militia" written on it. Maybe add a spud with crossed pitchforks and form into the tater brigade. If they come via canoe to our northern shore I'll grab said musket and said uniform. Perhaps with a milk pail and crossed grub hoes. Dairy detachment.

I don't think the uniform is required to put down insurrections.

Probably better to consult an attorney first though.

[Plain Old Dave]

This STILL seems confusing to me... If you're in the military, you're in the military. Period. You either follow a lawful order (i.e. cross international border by direction of competent authority) or you go to either what we call Captain's Mast, the jarheads call Office Hours and the other fellers call Article 15 or some class of court martial. I still think the common sense thing to do would be to organize an Army Reserve along reigonal lines that would approximate the old State Guards/Militias/whatever. (BTW, some yankee States had national guards in the Civil War.) as follows:

1st Division, USAR: Northeast
2d Division, USAR: Mid-Atlantic
3d Division, USAR: Southeast
4th Division, USAR: Southwest
5th Division, USAR: Midwest
6th Division, USAR: Pacific Coast
7th Division, USAR: Rocky Mtns/ Northwest

Troops would do their weekend IDTs at a reserve center near home and annual training, initial training, and regular mobilization training with Active Army commands with which they would hold a mobilization billet; the above framework is peacetime only. In event of recall/mobilization the Soldier would report to his gaining command and be considered a Regular Army Soldier until the conclusion of the recall.
Scenario:

Private John Doe was a member of the Tennessee National Guard and drilled in Rogersville. After the new law, he would still drill in Rogersville for his weekends and go to the 1st Cavalry for annual training and mobilization readiness training, but would be a member of the 16th Brigade (TN= 16th State in the Union), 3rd Division, United States Army Reserve. In event of recall to active duty, Private Doe would report to the Commanding Officer, 1st United States Cavalry for duty as assigned.

Or does that just make too much sense?

(Letters of marque and reprisal were issued by the State Department [NOT the Department of the Navy] and were outlawed by international treaty in the mid 19th Century; the Confederacy's issue of letters was a technical violation of international law. Under current international maritime law a "letter of marque" AFAIK is considered piracy)

[5MadFarmers]

Ordering Militia to cross an international border wouldn't be a lawful order. Check back a couple of posts to the Constitutional reference - "repel invasion" was determined to be "not cross it." That is the job of the army, navy, etc. Militia aren't the army.

The line between "state" and "federal" is legally pretty distinct. Army reserve troops, being completely federal, cannot do many things inside a "state" which the guard can. I had occasion, a few decades ago, to process a Posse Comitatus Act request. From the federal side.

I did not know that about letters of marque. So they're both against international treaty and issued by foggy bottom - currently under control of the hildebeast. I am saddened.

[5MadFarmers]

Oy, this is going to divert this too far and I shouldn't....

Letters of Marque are not issued by the State Department as that is an executive agency - they're an enumerated power of Congress:


"To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;"

Section 8 - "Powers of Congress."

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=225&wit_id=438

Search for "Marque" in there.

They were "eliminated" by the Paris Declaration of 1856 but the US isn't a signatory.

This isn't authoritative:


In December 1941 and the first months of 1942, the Goodyear blimp Resolute was operated as an anti-submarine privateer based out of Los Angeles. As the only US craft to operate under a Letter of Marque since the War of 1812, the Resolute, armed with a rifle and flown by its civilian crew, patrolled the seas for submarines. See Shock, James R., Smith, David R., The Goodyear Airships, Bloomington, Illinois, Airship International Press, 2002, pg. 43, ISBN 0-9711637-0-7

but it gives me hope. Arghhhh.

This is a Krag board though so I think I'm going to stick a fork in this thread for me. It was an interesting distraction but I need to get back to doing some work. Either that or start petitioning congress for a letter.....

[limazulu]

There's the unorganized militia and the organized militia. The organized militia is the National Guard that is controlled by the Governor's of each state unless activted by the President for national service. They were standardized so that there would be consistency in their training and their equipment if called to national service. (Remember President Kennedy had to nationalize the guard in Alabama or Mississippi to use them to protect students when the schools were desegregated).

Each state sets their own age requirments. In Massachusetts I think its between the ages of 17 and 47. The Governor can not only call out the National Guard for any emergency but can also call up the unorganized militia. If I was still within that age group and the governor called up the unorgaized militia I would have to report to my local Chief of Police who would oversee our selection of officers. That is why firearm permits are issued by the Chiefs of Police in Massachusetts.

[Shooter5]

I seem to recall some private Civil Air Patrol pilots flew their own for anti-sub patrols. Didn't one/some claim to have attacked some U-boats and the US Navy has not verified their claim?