New Military Pistol?

[Dan In Indiana]

Sig Sauer, Inc., Exeter, N.H., was awarded on Sept. 1, 2009, a $353,727,780 three year, firm-fixed price contract for Sig Sauer 9MM pistols and contractor furnished spare parts for 9MM pistols models P226 and P228. Work is to be performed in Exeter, N.H., with an estimated completion date of Apr. 25, 2012. One bid solicited with one bid received. Tank- Automotive Armaments Command, Rock Island, Ill., is the contracting activity (W52H09-09-D-0158).

[musculus]

The initial order of 55,890 units is to be released as the standard sidearm for the entire Colombian National Police force. Shipments are to begin immediately with a second release of 42,000 pistols to follow.

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I suspect the next batch of 55,000 will be going to Afghan "Police" and "Defense Forces." Your tax dollars at work./

And just to let you know, AMC Tank is the contracting agency for this contracy ONLY because they know HOW to supervise this type of contract. People always seemt to read X,Y, or Z into almost anything that sounds like a "new" issue weapon.

IT IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN. The M4/M16 and M9/M92 Beretta are going to be around for a long time to come.

[Ping Sr.]

Never owned or shot the Beretta. Other than the 9mm, is it actually any good? I remember when it was in all the gun mags as the replacement for the 1911 and of course the caliber debate will continue forever (I'll take the 45 anyday - especially with ball ammo) but has the pistol held up and performed for the guys using it?

They feel ok in hand but the backwards safety will keep me from ever carrying one. Had a Sig 220 - was a good pistol.

[John Sukey]

What does it take to pound a lesson into our procurement nabobs?

We went from the .45LC to the .38 in the 1890's until we found out the HARD way that it wasn't stopping the bad guys, so back to .45 . Now the crap is commonality with our NATO brethern. I realise we are in a recession but we have usualy been able to supply pistol ammunition to our military without bothering our allies.
Yes, the current wunder nines have high capacity magazines, and you are going to NEED all those extra rounds to do what a single stack mag of .45ACP will do. (even so, high cap .45's are also around)

Why do we have the Berreta? NOT because it was so superior, but BECAUSE Italy bought F-16's and it was a reciprocal deal.

[musculus]

Why do we have the Berreta? NOT because it was so superior, but BECAUSE Italy bought F-16's and it was a reciprocal deal
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whatever the merits or demerits of the Beretta 92 design(s), please try and stick to FACTS when you make an argument. this F-16 story is total and complete BS. feel free to cite your sources for this silly story (other than some nabob in the waiting line of the gunshow you went to last year).

[Dave Waits]

I had friends in both Ordnance and Army Procurement when the 'Tests' were done and the Beretta was chosen. Now, It had nothing to do with F16 fighters directly. The M9 was chosen for political reasons(Actually, two other pistols, one of them the SIG, beat it in the tests), we accept the pathetic M9 and get unlimited use of Aviano Air Force Base in return for us shoving the equally pathetic 5.56mmNATO round down Italy's throat. That sir is fact and anybody in the Military weapons and procurement circles knows it. I'd give you names but I was politely asked not to, two of them are still in Active-Duty and close to retirement. You can make what you want of it but, those are the facts.

As for the effectiveness of the vaunted M9 and it's round, both are hated in the sandbox and tales coming back from there about it's failures are legion.

[Ping Sr.]

My opinion- A 9mm should be small. A big 9mm should be a 45. I dont mind carrying a small 9mm - its better than a 380. But if Im taking something full size it will be 45. An XD 45 or Glock 45 is same size as the Beretta and hold a lot of rounds in a large caliber.

[musculus]

I had friends in both Ordnance and Army Procurement when the 'Tests' were done and the Beretta was chosen. Now, It had nothing to do with F16 fighters directly. The M9 was chosen for political reasons(Actually, two other pistols, one of them the SIG, beat it in the tests), we accept the pathetic M9 and get unlimited use of Aviano Air Force Base in return for us shoving the equally pathetic 5.56mmNATO round down Italy's throat. That sir is fact and anybody in the Military weapons and procurement circles knows it. I'd give you names but I was politely asked not to, two of them are still in Active-Duty and close to retirement. You can make what you want of it but, those are the facts.

As for the effectiveness of the vaunted M9 and it's round, both are hated in the sandbox and tales coming back from there about it's failures are legion.


well I guess the forum rules don't allow me to say what I think of your "facts." I could say I was DB Cooper, with as much credibility as your story. And to get things correct, the SIG was the Berettas ONLY competition (not two pistols)

I repeat, the Italy, F16, etc. etc. etc. stuff is in fact BULL SHEEET. I can think of no weapon in the history of manking with more BS surrounding it than the M9.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm

[musculus]

I had friends in both Ordnance and Army Procurement when the 'Tests' were done and the Beretta was chosen. Now, It had nothing to do with F16 fighters directly. The M9 was chosen for political reasons(Actually, two other pistols, one of them the SIG, beat it in the tests), we accept the pathetic M9 and get unlimited use of Aviano Air Force Base in return for us shoving the equally pathetic 5.56mmNATO round down Italy's throat. That sir is fact and anybody in the Military weapons and procurement circles knows it. I'd give you names but I was politely asked not to, two of them are still in Active-Duty and close to retirement. You can make what you want of it but, those are the facts.

.


well I guess the forum rules don't allow me to say what I think of your "facts." I could say I was DB Cooper, with as much credibility as your piffley story. And to get things correct, the SIG was the Berettas ONLY final competition (not two pistols) after the pack of EIGHT got narrowed down.

I repeat, the Italy, F16, etc. etc. etc. stuff is in fact BULL SHEEET. I can think of no weapon in the history of manking with more BS surrounding it than the M9.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm

[Herschel]

I was at Hurlbut? Field Florida for a counter-terrorism school, I believe it was in the early 1980's, when test were being undertaken by USAF, ARMY, etc to select the new service pistol. I believe they had settled on the 9mm but various pistols were being compared. Some USAF marksmanship team personnel were involved. I recalling their saying their choice was the Beretta. These were enlisted men who were just doing the testing. They were not any part of a political tradoff to sell planes. I carried a 9mm Beretta 92 SB Compact as a sidearm during some of my years with the US Marshals Service. I sold it and bought a Ruger P85 when they were introduced. Both were fine pistols and I was comfortable with staking my life on the stopping power of the 9mm Parabellum. I am very familiar with the 1911A1 in .45 ACP cal as I shot one for several years on a USAR pistol team using hard ball ammo. I can hit better with the Beretta or Ruger in 9mm so those were my choices. Hits Count!

[John Sukey]

Why do we have the Berreta? NOT because it was so superior, but BECAUSE Italy bought F-16's and it was a reciprocal deal
*************

whatever the merits or demerits of the Beretta 92 design(s), please try and stick to FACTS when you make an argument. this F-16 story is total and complete BS. feel free to cite your sources for this silly story (other than some nabob in the waiting line of the gunshow you went to last year).

For your information the story is NOT BS. I worked on F-16's for years, and that was the information at the time.
I DID NOT get that from some "nabob" at a gun show. Since I have retired, the information is no longer available to me. so you might want to be a bit less hasty with your accusations.

[musculus]

For your information the story is NOT BS. I worked on F-16's for years, and that was the information at the time.
I DID NOT get that from some "nabob" at a gun show. Since I have retired, the information is no longer available to me. so you might want to be a bit less hasty with your accusations.

EXACTLY when was this illegal super-secret quid-pro-quo "deal" made? Simce the service pistol update process began in the late 70's and (ultimately) ended with the adoption of the M9 in 1984 (and again in 88), with at least three different agencies involved in supervising the testing? I suspect because the USAF started the whole thing with a requirement to replace their 1911s and .38 revovlers, this TOTAL MYTH (one of many about the Beretta) also arose.

As for this AViano Airbase BS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviano_Air_Base

Aviano has had NO PERMANENT USAF aircraft statitoned there UNTIL 1992 (8 years AFTER the testing)

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http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Joint_Service_Small_Arms_Program#encyclopedia

Under the Joint Service Small Arms ProgramJoint Service Small Arms Program
The Joint Service Small Arms Program, usually just called JSSAP, was created to coordinate weapon standardization between the various U.S....
which was run by the U.S. Air ForceUnited States Air Force
The United States Air Force is the aerial warfare branch of the Military of the United States and one of the uniformed services of the United States....
, a number of 9 mm pistol designs were trialed in the late 1970s to find a replacement for the M1911. The 9 mm round was selected for compliance with NATONATO
standardization. In 1980, the Beretta 92S-1 design was chosen over entries from ColtColt's Manufacturing Company, Smith & WessonSmith & Wesson
, the Star M28, and various FN and HK. The result, however, was challenged by the Army and new tests were to be done, this time run by the Army rather than the Air Force. In 1984, the trials started again with updated entries from Smith & Wesson, Beretta, SIG Sauer, Heckler & Koch, Walther, SteyrSteyr Mannlicher
, and Fabrique Nationale. Beretta won this competition but there was a new trial, the XM10 competition, in 1988. This resulted in two different trials that were more limited, but resulted in the Beretta design being kept, with an update to it happening during the same time frame.

[musculus]

Both were fine pistols and I was comfortable with staking my life on the stopping power of the 9mm Parabellum. I am very familiar with the 1911A1 in .45 ACP cal as I shot one for several years on a USAR pistol team using hard ball ammo. I can hit better with the Beretta or Ruger in 9mm so those were my choices. Hits Count!


I agree. I get tired of the bull you hear all the time about "I hit the Taliban guy in the thumb with a .45ACP and he did a backflip and died on the spot." Or, "Some guy shot fourteen rounds of 9mm into the guys head and they all bounced off and then he got up and ran away (or shot my buddy with his AK etc.)"

While I have little doubt that bigger is better, thus a hand-held .50 BMG with no recoil would be nice, the only way to shut someone down and put them out of the fight for sure is to score a direct hit on the CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM (brain/spine) or decrease blood pressure/flow to the brain enough to shut out the lights upstairs.

Finally, the total number of bad guys actually killed IN COMBAT with someone using a service pistol (at least post-WW2) is INFINTESIMAL. NOBODY with any brains intentionally goes into a firefight (or even into bad-guy land) armed only with a pistol. It's a SECONDARY weapon or part of an AIRCREW SURVIVAL/EVASION system. Yes, I know that there were a couple of Iraqis zaped by an M1 Tank crewman (4/64 AR??) using a 9mm on the "Thunder Run" into Baghdad but only because they had run out of almost everything else.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/1182-operation-thunder-run.html

[John Sukey]

Musculus, whatever the true facts may be, that did NOT justify your original insulting reply.

[musculus]

I'm sorry you were embarrased, I guess my tolerance level for loosey goosey stuff on some issues (esp. service weapon "facts") is fairly low.

I tend to be extremely careful about distinguishing facts from "stuff I have heard." It's like what Jeff Foxworthy says about asking a woman with a big belly if she "is pregnant." He says, You don't ever do this unless you are actually observing the baby "emerge from the womb."

Thus, when it comes to facts, it must be capable of being checked and PROVEN. Frankly, you said that something was a "fact" based upon what was really just pure hearsay (what someone else said--"what I was told at the time").

Under these types of circumstances, when I post my 02 cents, I usually say "I was told once X, Y or Z" and let it go at that. Usually,someone out there in internet land quite likely may have proof of same, or knows better.

When it involves something as sure to get a micturation contest going as "service pistol/9mm, 45 vs. 9mm" or "low number 03 safe to shoot or not," or "jacketed bullets wear out the rifling in old guns," "JFK conspiracy," etc. I tend to have my factual proofs close at hand.