The Fourragere and the 1903

[Marine A5 Sniper]

One of these Generals used the 1903 to "pot shot" the enemy (in his own words) in intense combat. Both Generals wear the fourragere, but only one earned his in combat. Can you identify the General who used the 1903 to earn his fourragere in combat?:icon_scratch:

Jim:eusa_boohoo:

[Marine A5 Sniper]

That should be "fouragere", with only one "r". Sorry about that.

Jim

[Don W]

I would say; the one on the left.

DW

[wolley]

That should be "fouragere", with only one "r". Sorry about that.

Jim
Actually it is 2 Rs. According to Wiki. Also according to Wiki if it is worn over the sleeve as in the guy on the left is trying to do the wearer was a meember of the unit when the award was earned. If not it is worn as the guy on the right is wearing it.
Who are these gentlemen?

[Marine A5 Sniper]

The man on the left is Major General Graves B. Erskine, a Platoon Commander at Belleau Wood under Holcomb (later Commandant of the Marine Corps). These are two of my favorite pictures of him. I think you can recognize the others in the photos.:headbang:

Jim:evil6:

[Rick the Librarian]

The Duke on the left and Chesty Puller on the right.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Bingo! That was a tough one!

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Actually it is 2 Rs. According to Wiki. Also according to Wiki if it is worn over the sleeve as in the guy on the left is trying to do the wearer was a meember of the unit when the award was earned. If not it is worn as the guy on the right is wearing it.
Who are these gentlemen?

Darn Wiki! You are correct. The man on the left, Graves Erskine, earned his at Belleau Wood and Blanc Mont or Soissions, can't remember the second one.:icon_scratch:

Jim:icon_salut:

[Rick the Librarian]

You're a better man than I am, trying to spell that word!! :eusa_wall:

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Which one? I misspelled two words - Fouragere and Soissons.

Jim

[Paul-In-Oregon]

Afraid I don't see Chesty in the photo with Duke and General Erskine. Looks like Sands of Iwo production guy perhaps, but not General Puller.

As for the two generals and their Fourragere's, my guess would be that both were combat recepients. Erskine's as stated above, and General Clifton B. Cates; recepient during WW1 of the Navy Cross, two Army DSC's, Silver Star Citation, wounded, and awarded multiple French and other foreign awards. - He still had more coming in WW2, and became commandant.

Best regards,
Paul Walker
Klamath Falls, Oregon

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Paul,

Are you sure that is Cates? If so, you are correct, but he is incorrectly wearing his fouragere. Think he ever forgave Robertson for getting his medal for taking Bouresches (Cates took the town, Robertson got the medal)?

Chesty Puller is in the second picture, sitting in a chair.

Thanks, Paul.

Jim Tarleton

[Rick the Librarian]

That's what I meant to say - Chesty Puller was in the second picture, not the first.

[Chaz]

Now I'm thoroughly confused. I know a Soissons is some kinda Armenian doughnut but never heard of a fouragere (or is it 2 r's?). Is that the braid dangling from the shoulder? I'm depending on you guys to help me through this becuz it's Saturday and I don't have time for Wikipedia or even Webster. B

[musculus]

it's "fourragère" I wore one when I was with the 2nd ID from WW1 and the 82nd (and maybe one more US division) were awarded these from the French in WW2. The colors in the braids signify the times each unit is cited for valor.

You can only wear it while you are in the unit, unless you were in it when it was awarded.

[Paul-In-Oregon]

Paul,

Are you sure that is Cates? If so, you are correct, but he is incorrectly wearing his fouragere. Think he ever forgave Robertson for getting his medal for taking Bouresches (Cates took the town, Robertson got the medal)?

Chesty Puller is in the second picture, sitting in a chair.

Thanks, Paul.

Jim Tarleton


Jim,

I'm 95% sure that it is in fact Cates with Erskine. My best guess is that the picture dates from the mid-late 1950's, but I don't know the specific occasion. If you have a larger resolution of it, I'd appreciate you sending me a copy, Jim. While there ages look about right for that time period, the fly in that ointment is the "wide ribbons", particularly on Cates. I believe that after 1948, the 1/2 inchers (or thereabouts 1/2") were no longer regulation for wear.

Someplace in uniform reg's I believe there is also a definition of how the fourragere is differently worn upon the degree of dress. - And this has also been subject to periodic change over the years - but I believe Erskine is wearing it in the manner you'd wear it with the evening or mess dress uniforms, i.e. "formal". Notice his is also the more deluxe version, with an extra strand to the "pogey rope". Cates is wearing it as is considered proper with service dress, and it is the version with a braid only, that the sleeve is put through. Their dress for that occasion looks like service dress blue.

Let's pretend it is the late 1950's; I doubt if there's anyone in the room with enough horsepower to walk up and tell one of them their fourragere is haywire, and the other that his ribbons are out of whack !!

Being living legends that evening gave them the right of way.

Best to all,
Paul

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Hey Bruce, you old dog.

The fouragere is the shoulder cord that represents a unit being recognized for outstanding valor in combat twice or more in French daily battle reports, unless they are just making fun of you. If it is an individual, he gets a Croix de Guerre each time he is mentioned. The unit gets to wear the fouragere forever and you as a member of the unit get to wear it as long as you are in the unit, unless you were in the unit when it was awarded the fouragere, then you get to wear it dangling down your shoulder as is Graves as long as you live plus five years. If you are just in a unit that was awarded the fouragere in the past, you have to run the thing under your armpit, and when you leave the unit, you can't wear it anymore and your wife uses it to hang curtains. There is a message in that somewhere.

Soissons is that little community just past Sturgis, Mississippi on Highway 12.

Jim

PS
I don't know squat about the "r's", which is obvious to anyone who has read the posts.

[Chaz]

[IMG]http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr354/DoctorBruno/scan0015.jpg

It's these illuminating topics that keep me coming here. And, yes, there are two R's in fourragere. BK

[Dan Shapiro]

IIRC, there is also a distinction in wearing of the Presidential Unit Citation. If serving at the time in the unit so awarded, you continue to wear it - enclosed in a gold frame. If you're just serving with a unit that was previously awarded it, you wear it, sans frame.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

[IMG]http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr354/DoctorBruno/scan0015.jpg

It's these illuminating topics that keep me coming here. And, yes, there are two R's in fourragere. BK

That dog looks like he is trying to tell me something. I wonder what it could be?:icon_scratch:

Jim:1948:

[Chaz]

"JT, Who you callin' an old dog?" he's asking. Then he explained to me, the real old dog, that the other division to receive French honors granting a fourragere was the 101st AB. I have a photo of Maj. Dick Winters in his memoir in which he is wearing a fourragere OVER his shoulder. And to think that a few days ago I had never so much as heard of a fourragere, let alone understand the significance of the ways in which it is worn. BTW, I'm returning to Sturgis, MS this winter so I just might stop in Soissons for one of those doughnuts. And if I can figger out how to smuggle it across state lines, I'll bring you a vial of holy water from the dog's fountain. B

[Chaz]

"Further" he explained "Here is additional info about fourrageres and 5th and 6th Marines."
I hate it when a dog outsmarts me!

http://www.i-mef.usmc.mil/DIV/5mar/fourragere.asp

[Maury Krupp]

IIRC, there is also a distinction in wearing of the Presidential Unit Citation. If serving at the time in the unit so awarded, you continue to wear it - enclosed in a gold frame. If you're just serving with a unit that was previously awarded it, you wear it, sans frame.
You may be thinking of some of the RVN awards that could either be awarded to an individual or to an entire unit. With those a frame indicated a unit award; no frame indicated an individual award.

For US awards it depends on the service.

Army unit awards are worn on the right side and all have frames. If you were a member when the award was made it's yours permanently. Otherwise it's only worn while assigned.

Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force unit awards are more like individual awards. They're only worn if you were a member when the award was made. They're yours permanently. They're worn on the left side with all other individual awards. The sea services don't seem to put frames around any of their unit awards. In the AF only the Presidential Unit Citation and Joint Meritorious Unit Award have a frame; all the others don't.

Maury

[Thomasm]

Mark Twain said "it's a damned poor word that can only be spellt one way"