Cartouche

[kurtflys]

Ouch! How long has this been going on?

http://www.trfindley.com/pgsnstmpsm1.html

[gmg1183]

to long.

[Dan Shapiro]

Findley goes way back, unfortunately. And people are still getting stung today.

[Mark in Rochester]

http://shuffsparkerizing.com/Garand_Stock_Cartouching.html

site has not been updated - no longer stamping reproduction on stocks

[Rick the Librarian]

What was surprising to me was on a thread on the CMP forum about this topic. About 2/3 of the posters said (when I offered criticism of the practice) that it was none of my business!

[Rick B]

What was surprising to me was on a thread on the CMP forum about this topic. About 2/3 of the posters said (when I offered criticism of the practice) that it was none of my business!

It is not surprising anymore when most of society thinks it is ok to lie but not be lied to. Times have change with all of the Liberals in charge over the last 20 years. Rick B

[Liam]

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u23/Liam_068/FINDLEY.jpg

[RCS]

There was a guy back in the late 1980's early '90's that did restamping in Utah, not alot of cartouches just a few like SA GHS and WRA WB. His best work was on the WRA WB stocks and I know people who got Winchester stocks from me that sent them to Utah. Being no-trap stocks they were quite desirable ( and still are). I wonder how many Winchester collectors have these fake WRA WB no-trap stocks in their collections now - yet could not even imagine that they own a fake cartouche

[Rick the Librarian]

I did, several years ago. I asked if he could at least mark the stocks with something that would make it obvious they were not legit. He said his customers "didn't want him to" (Duh, I wonder why???):icon_jokercolor:

[RCS]

There are a number of reasons people stamp fake cartouches, one of the best is their dislike for collectors, others do it money. Some really enjoy fooling everyone with a fake stamp and some people just can not afford an original stock to complete their restoration and get the fake stamp.

Before the M1 became interesting, other stocks were being stamped but never in the amount compared to the M1 rifle

[Sunray]

People stamping aftermarket stocks with cartouches and claiming them to be legit, isn't the fault of the guy who makes the stamps.
"...Before the M1 became interesting..." Wadaya mean 'before'? Lusted after one as a wee lad watching 'Combat' in the 60's. snicker.

[Bill D]

The reason these guys are able to stay in business is because we are so "hung up" on cartouches. We get into flaming sh!t wars on here about three or four times a year over cartouches. I remember some really nasty ones on the old site. Is it really necessary? Just what the he!! difference does a "scar" stamped on a piece of wood make. It was put there to show who made the weapon and during what time period. That and that the U.S. Government had decided to accept it.

Come we now to this time period. We all know that an M1 Garand rifle was made by the United States armory or one of their contractors. There aren't many counterfeit M1's floating around out there and if there are a few, they sure aren't hard to tell from the real deal. Now, as to when each rifle was made and under which armory superintendant, the rifle serial number pretty much pegs it.

We all also know that there aren't very many absolutely untouched rifles out there at this late date. Most have been through rebuild at least once and many have been there several times. The rebuild process was simple - tear the damned thing down into as many pieces as practical, throw the pieces into seperate bins, refinish or replace those parts that are worn out, and then reassemble the rifle. Oh yea, the wood was almost always sanded and refinished and this process almost always destroyed the cartouches. Did a few get missed? Of course - that's why there are still a few gas traps out there, too. There were also some "arms room queens" that didn't do anything to deserve a rebuild and some stone cold new rifles that got sent to our friends and allies as military aide. Some of those were returned in pretty much the same shape as received less some wear of different degrees. Some of our allies that these rifles were loaned to didn't have much in the way of rebuild facilities and some did. Then, on top of all this, the average rifle got cleaned to death over it's lifetime and during these cleaning sessions, usually done in mass, parts became intermingled. What the he!!, parts are parts and they were made to interchange.

Now, the CMP comes along and gets into the surplus rifle business. They come into possession of large quantities of surplus rifles from different sources and in varying condition. However, CMP is smart enough to know that they can manipulate the market to sell some of these surplus rifles as "collector pieces". Some of these may truly have come to the CMP in this condition but a great many are "remanufactured" into a slightly better condition rifle than they were received. CMP know that some rifles will fetch a better price if configured a certain way and CMP has the parts to do this. Out the door they go to the eager Garand buying/collecting folks like us. If some of you folks think you are receiving CMP rifles that are just as they went out the door of Springfield Armory or WRA, HRA, or IHC, you are living in la-la land. They have all been messed with to a certain degree.

When I first started buyin from CMP, I received a really nice Winchester rifle with a Winchester barrel, op rod, stock and a few other WRA parts. It did have some SA parts on it but not a great many. The stock had a SA in a half box cartouche but no other cartouches other than the proof "P". It had strong Winchester characteristics and some other stamps that Rick Borecky was able to use to conclusively prove that it was of Winchester manufacture. Over the years, I have replaced the SA parts with correct WRA parts and now have a substantually correct 1943 Winchester M1 in beautiful condition. If I found a properly cartouched stock, would the rifle be original? Of course not. If I had Findley stamp a cartouche on my stock, would it be any less correct. Again, I think not. I someone wanted to stamp a substantially correct cartouche on their stock to show the correct manufacturer, date range and etc., I would have no problem with it. Is Findley breaking any laws by stamping wood with his stamps? If you think he is, show me what laws. He doesn't pretend to do anything other than custom stamp stocks. He makes no claims otherwise. Do those who who purchase his service break any laws? Not unless they intend to try to commit fraud. Now, even CMP has gotten into stamping their own cartouches on Boyd's stocks.

I have a few M1's that I acquired that came from the old DCM program that have cartouches that are stone cold genuine. Those rifles came directly out of government depots and couldn't have had their stocks messed with but they all have a mix of parts on them. If I put all correct parts on those, would they be original? Not a chance. Would it be fair to try to sell them as original? I wouldn't do it.

I used to wonder how my nice Winchester M1 managed to come through CMP with that many nice WRA parts. The way the rebuild program is set up, it just isn't logical. Then, a year or so ago, I had an opportunity to pose this question to a guy who used to work at CMP. He told me that there was at least one guy who worked there that liked to "put together" a nice collection of parts that went out the door to someone he didn't even know. Nice guy, and I'm glad I was the recipient of that particular collection of parts but wasn't he guilty of the same thing that someone that takes a stock to Findley is?

I'm beginning to think I shoud give the whole M1 collecting thing up and start colecting Barbie Dolls or something else a little more sane.

[RCS]

Perhaps Findley will duplicate the new round CMP stamp.

[Roadkingtrax]

The reason these guys are able to stay in business is because we are so "hung up" on cartouches. We get into flaming sh!t wars on here about three or four times a year over cartouches. I remember some really nasty ones on the old site. Is it really necessary? Just what the he!! difference does a "scar" stamped on a piece of wood make. It was put there to show who made the weapon and during what time period. That and that the U.S. Government had decided to accept it.

Come we now to this time period. We all know that an M1 Garand rifle was made by the United States armory or one of their contractors. There aren't many counterfeit M1's floating around out there and if there are a few, they sure aren't hard to tell from the real deal. Now, as to when each rifle was made and under which armory superintendant, the rifle serial number pretty much pegs it.

We all also know that there aren't very many absolutely untouched rifles out there at this late date. Most have been through rebuild at least once and many have been there several times. The rebuild process was simple - tear the damned thing down into as many pieces as practical, throw the pieces into seperate bins, refinish or replace those parts that are worn out, and then reassemble the rifle. Oh yea, the wood was almost always sanded and refinished and this process almost always destroyed the cartouches. Did a few get missed? Of course - that's why there are still a few gas traps out there, too. There were also some "arms room queens" that didn't do anything to deserve a rebuild and some stone cold new rifles that got sent to our friends and allies as military aide. Some of those were returned in pretty much the same shape as received less some wear of different degrees. Some of our allies that these rifles were loaned to didn't have much in the way of rebuild facilities and some did. Then, on top of all this, the average rifle got cleaned to death over it's lifetime and during these cleaning sessions, usually done in mass, parts became intermingled. What the he!!, parts are parts and they were made to interchange.

Now, the CMP comes along and gets into the surplus rifle business. They come into possession of large quantities of surplus rifles from different sources and in varying condition. However, CMP is smart enough to know that they can manipulate the market to sell some of these surplus rifles as "collector pieces". Some of these may truly have come to the CMP in this condition but a great many are "remanufactured" into a slightly better condition rifle than they were received. CMP know that some rifles will fetch a better price if configured a certain way and CMP has the parts to do this. Out the door they go to the eager Garand buying/collecting folks like us. If some of you folks think you are receiving CMP rifles that are just as they went out the door of Springfield Armory or WRA, HRA, or IHC, you are living in la-la land. They have all been messed with to a certain degree.

When I first started buyin from CMP, I received a really nice Winchester rifle with a Winchester barrel, op rod, stock and a few other WRA parts. It did have some SA parts on it but not a great many. The stock had a SA in a half box cartouche but no other cartouches other than the proof "P". It had strong Winchester characteristics and some other stamps that Rick Borecky was able to use to conclusively prove that it was of Winchester manufacture. Over the years, I have replaced the SA parts with correct WRA parts and now have a substantually correct 1943 Winchester M1 in beautiful condition. If I found a properly cartouched stock, would the rifle be original? Of course not. If I had Findley stamp a cartouche on my stock, would it be any less correct. Again, I think not. I someone wanted to stamp a substantially correct cartouche on their stock to show the correct manufacturer, date range and etc., I would have no problem with it. Is Findley breaking any laws by stamping wood with his stamps? If you think he is, show me what laws. He doesn't pretend to do anything other than custom stamp stocks. He makes no claims otherwise. Do those who who purchase his service break any laws? Not unless they intend to try to commit fraud. Now, even CMP has gotten into stamping their own cartouches on Boyd's stocks.

I have a few M1's that I acquired that came from the old DCM program that have cartouches that are stone cold genuine. Those rifles came directly out of government depots and couldn't have had their stocks messed with but they all have a mix of parts on them. If I put all correct parts on those, would they be original? Not a chance. Would it be fair to try to sell them as original? I wouldn't do it.

I used to wonder how my nice Winchester M1 managed to come through CMP with that many nice WRA parts. The way the rebuild program is set up, it just isn't logical. Then, a year or so ago, I had an opportunity to pose this question to a guy who used to work at CMP. He told me that there was at least one guy who worked there that liked to "put together" a nice collection of parts that went out the door to someone he didn't even know. Nice guy, and I'm glad I was the recipient of that particular collection of parts but wasn't he guilty of the same thing that someone that takes a stock to Findley is?

I'm beginning to think I shoud give the whole M1 collecting thing up and start colecting Barbie Dolls or something else a little more sane.

I've decided that collecting Garands in Mass, while fun, is not practical for me...so I'm going to start collecting memories as I already do in life. I've noticed that I suck up time, looking at classifieds, checking the CMP, Jouster, Gunboards, Gunbroker, Auction Arms....and for all this Obsessive searching for a Good Deal, or a nice gun is dominating my interest in Garands...rather then going to the damn range. I really agree with the points you made in your post, I know for myself personally that I always consume myself when I start a new interest,...I get so wrapped up in that interest that it destroys any light-hearted passion that was the start of it all. I can see Garands heading down this self destructive tendency.

I have to keep in mind what my fraternal Grandmother used to say, "What you don't have,...you never miss." Here's to fighting the Buy Me Now demons...and enjoying Garands in a responsible and enjoyable way.

[Maj Dad]

I have a few M1's that I acquired that came from the old DCM program that have cartouches that are stone cold genuine. Those rifles came directly out of government depots and couldn't have had their stocks messed with but they all have a mix of parts on them. If I put all correct parts on those, would they be original? Not a chance. Would it be fair to try to sell them as original? I wouldn't do it.


I'm of the same mind. Looking at my CMP & "one in a lifetime" DCM Garands, all of them came in their issue attire. One 3-45 SA was all correct save the trigger group (I replaced it, now it's "correct", but not really "as issued"); a Win reparked rebuilt mixer unissued after rebuild @ Letterkenny (DCM); a reparked rebuilt mixer IHC from AAD, with AAD stamped stock; a and so on. All of them are great, but I have an affinity for the "as issued" rifles. There is no way to pedigree one of these, in reality, but I know that they are 100% as issued, and real representative pieces of the Garand tapestry. They're honest soldiers.:icon_salut: