Sauer und Sohn production M1 bolts???story??

[krag4201]

Can anyone tell me the story behind the German Sauer Und Sohn made M1 garand rifle bolts? I purchased one to use in a shooter and am curious about why they were made and for who. Thanks

[John R.]

The then WEST German Bundeswehr were initially equipped with US supplied small arms circa 1955 when they rearmed.Soon thereafter like probably 1958 they adopted the Belgian FN-FAL with type 1 receiver and the detachable flash suppressor with steel handguards and lightweight folding bipod.When the Belgians refused to licence the FN-FAL for production in West Germany Heckler and Koch/Rheinmetall collaborated in producing the G-3 which was in production in Franco's Spain as the CETME.That was derived from Ludwig Vorgrimmler's Stg-45.
In the period of the Garands being issued to the Bundeswehr contracts were let for spare bolts and barrels amongst other Garand parts.When the G-3 rifles came into standard issue status Germany seems to have turned over ALL her stocks of Garands and spares to Turkey under the aegis of the NATO agreements.

Some Sauer und Sohn M1 Garand bolts made it across the great water to North America in the last 2 decades and were sold in both the US and Canada.Some people have had problems with them or so they say.I bought 20 from Trade Ex in Montreal about 2 years ago out of curiousity's sake and shipped 18 of them back due to their having been advertised as being brand new which they might have been but they were ALSO pitted albeit lightly.All were also discoloured probably from having been outside in the rain as in a scrap pile or whatever.I reparkerized them both and kept one as an example and gave the other to a friend who also is a Garand nut.I also have a dash 12 SA bolt without the oil hole on the bottom in the same parts display.I have one of the West German barrels as well but it is currently unavailable due to being under a pile of mining gear in my warehouse.

Hopefully I have answered your question re the Sauer und Sohn bolts.JR

[Griff Murphey]

Yeah it's been a while but on the OLD board about 2 years ago (?) there was somebody who had one blow apart/shatter when he tried to use it and there was a discussion that it had not been properly heat treated, and I think I remember the conclusion that some of these bolts really WERE scrap. Based on that I don't think I'd use one on a live, firing weapon.

[krag4201]

Thankyou I guess I'll keep looking for a PB marked bolt for the gun and just keep this thing as a paper weight.

[John R.]

I think that all of us would agree that the Germans have never been known to turn out anything that was unsafe"junque".Cheap crap like those Roehm revolvers perhaps;but you get what you pay for and I have never heard of any kerbooms regarding the Roehms.
Looking at the fine pitting and discolouration on the 20 I had, as well as the story I got from the fellow on the old CSP at the time Griff referred to. I am of the opinion that the discoloured/pitted ones MIGHT have been in a fire.That was why I just kept it as a curiousity and not for use in a build or whatever.I have probably 50 SA and WRA bolts anyway and all are brand new so no need to take a chance.
ALL 20 bolts exhibited deeply struck WEST German proof marks running parallel to the dwg no and I know for a fact that the German Proof houses are meticulous.I lived there for two years and know the mindset.
Bill Ricca had some ten or more years ago and he said nothing about any problems.Knowing Bill's reputation we WOULD have heard about any problems in that regard.My thinking is that IF there were indeed a real problem it would be with the discoloured and pitted bolts.If your bolt looks like that load up a proof round and fire it from a tire tied to a tree.I have done that with ratty looking SKS and MN rifles a few times with NO spectacular results.JR

[mack]

John R and Griff, I remember the discussion on those bolts. I also remember that a lot of folks thought the bolts had some serious question about them.

There were two other cases of people sending them back to their point of purchase due to problems and one was, in fact, shatterred. Of course, no one ever knew what caused it, although John R, your observations about a fire might account for some heat treat issues and tensile. Still, no one will ever know.

Griff, I do remember the thread and the discussion about these items. There were several offered for sale on eBay over a period of months and the discussion came about because some buyers wondered why Garand bolts had German markings. John, your account of the parts and the rifle adoptions fills in a some important gaps in the history of these parts. I also cannot imagine anything German being of questionable quality, particularly something German military.

You are right of course, there are still plenty of good bolts out there, so why use something of unknown or questionable condition? It's just not worth it.