Some "new" Sgt York questions

[Fred]

I've no problem with justifying how York would've used a 1903 Springfield the day that he captured the Germans. But then, I'm no expert who knows better. I've corresponded however, with a man who is a shooting club buddy with a retired colonel in the Army who might have an answer. This colonel recently wrote a letter to The American Rifleman magazine about some information that he was given by his father, who was a Army unit member and personal friend of Alvin York. This man was on light duty and had been taken off combat duty for a spell until he fully recovered from what was ailing him whatever that was. I can't remember now. Anyway, he still had possession of his rifle and kit. One day, The father told his son that Alvin York was visiting with him one particular day just before Alvin and the rest of the men were going back into combat. York asked the man if he could take the man's rifle with him instead of his own rifle. The man said sure and York took possession of the rifle and as fortune would have it, performed his heroic deeds immediately afterwards. The man told his son that he didn't know whether or not his rifle was the particular one that York used that day, but he said he was pretty sure it was. I don't know if York ever returned the man's rifle to him or not. I guess that I could find out. Anyway, the rest of the story is this. The rifle york borrowed was one of several Model 1903 Springfield rifles that were stacked up behind a mess tent. They were noticed by one of the men in York's unit who grabbed an entire stack of them, consisting of at least three and probably more, and then hurried back to his own unit. Several of the men took possession of these and used them. I don't know if they got rid of their own rifles or just kept them too. Who this other unit was who had stacked their arms behind the mess tent I don't know. I'm not any kind of an expert on absolutely which units were in the area at that time. I'll bet that the only persons who absolutely ARE or WERE are all dead now. I think that anyone who says that they have all of the detailed information is biting off a big chunk and I just can't take their word as gospel. Nothing personal, but I know better than that. So, having been initially an enlisted man and later a combat arms officer in the U.S. Army, I know what I've seen and experienced concerning troops having access to and using weapons that they aren't supposed to officially have. I think that I'll have to go with what the Colonels father told him he knew about the incident.

[03Springfield]

Jim's right, York's unit was armed with M1917 rifles.

[Guamsst]

There are allot of COuldas and might haves and he saids. The provable facts all point to a 1917.

As to vets recollections. My uncle had a 30 carbine that "Fired the same 30 caliber round as the M1 Garand" Must have had a heck of a recoil!! And my uncle was a lifelong gun owner and hunter.

I will believe it was a 1917 until I see a fact that proves otherwise. We could all be wrong. But logically that's just how I see it.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

I've no problem with justifying how York would've used a 1903 Springfield the day that he captured the Germans. But then, I'm no expert who knows better. I've corresponded however, with a man who is a shooting club buddy with a retired colonel in the Army who might have an answer. This colonel recently wrote a letter to The American Rifleman magazine about some information that he was given by his father, who was a Army unit member and personal friend of Alvin York. This man was on light duty and had been taken off combat duty for a spell until he fully recovered from what was ailing him whatever that was. I can't remember now. Anyway, he still had possession of his rifle and kit. One day, The father told his son that Alvin York was visiting with him one particular day just before Alvin and the rest of the men were going back into combat. York asked the man if he could take the man's rifle with him instead of his own rifle. The man said sure and York took possession of the rifle and as fortune would have it, performed his heroic deeds immediately afterwards. The man told his son that he didn't know whether or not his rifle was the particular one that York used that day, but he said he was pretty sure it was. I don't know if York ever returned the man's rifle to him or not. I guess that I could find out. Anyway, the rest of the story is this. The rifle york borrowed was one of several Model 1903 Springfield rifles that were stacked up behind a mess tent. They were noticed by one of the men in York's unit who grabbed an entire stack of them, consisting of at least three and probably more, and then hurried back to his own unit. Several of the men took possession of these and used them. I don't know if they got rid of their own rifles or just kept them too. Who this other unit was who had stacked their arms behind the mess tent I don't know. I'm not any kind of an expert on absolutely which units were in the area at that time. I'll bet that the only persons who absolutely ARE or WERE are all dead now. I think that anyone who says that they have all of the detailed information is biting off a big chunk and I just can't take their word as gospel. Nothing personal, but I know better than that. So, having been initially an enlisted man and later a combat arms officer in the U.S. Army, I know what I've seen and experienced concerning troops having access to and using weapons that they aren't supposed to officially have. I think that I'll have to go with what the Colonels father told him he knew about the incident.

Wow! What unit would that have been? It would have had to be a NG unit, as they had the only 1903's (and Marines), and there were no NG units anywhere near him. For your information, you can trace the location of any unit in WWI on any given day. Just why was Alvin so willing to trade his rifle, which he trained with, for one he had never used? That sounds like the biggest BS story I have heard to date. Check out the daily logs for any unit, and you will see court martial for things as minor as a pitted bore, and you are going to tell me that some idiot agreed to trade his rifle for one he wasn't issued, not even the same model? Absolute nonsense. That is the most unbelievable story I have heard to date.

York was going back into combat? Really? In what combat action was York prior to the day he earned his MOH? You might want to read his regimental history, in which they specifically state that they kept detailed account of all issued equipment.

jt

[Guamsst]

...............you are going to tell me that some idiot agreed to trade his rifle for one he wasn't issued, not even the same model? Absolute nonsense. That is the most unbelievable story I have heard to date.

jt

That is actually the story I have heard most often and it is usually attributed to his preference in sights. Doesn't make it credible at all or even realistic, but it is a popular story.

[gonna]

What guys say that he did, and what his MOH commendation says that he did differ a lot. Jeff Cooper and many others have said that York shot down 8 charging men with the 1911, and his commendation says 6. They were trying to run uphill, fighting their way thru brush and mud, which gave York the time he needed to accomplish this feat. I've seen a claim that they HAD to be charging inline, too, in order for him to pick off the last one. Not true. They could be roughly abreast, and still be unable to see one (slightly behind the others) fall to his shot (s) Especially if they were experiencing the "tunnel-vision" that often occurs when we are under combat stress.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

They officers in charge of York went to the scene after it was over and counted all the bodies (all this is available on the net). His commendation is correct. What does Cooper know about it anyway? Was he there?

What disturbs me was the insistence of the surviving members of the squad, to a man, who claimed the movie was BS when it was released. Something isn't right. I think the investigating team saw enough to believe York deserved the commendation, so I don't know exactly what the other squad members meant. If I remember correctly, the others could not physically see York during the fray.

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Whoa. I found out what the controversy was between York and his fellow soldiers. It seems the other 11 soldiers did not agree with the published accounts of the fight. According to the survivors, York used his 45 for most of his shots, and they claim they all charged the last machine gun nest (York's citation claims he did this alone). They claim York said he killed 5 or 6 men just after the shooting stopped (not 26). There was a soldier right behind him that said he killed 3 or 4, and another soldier, who was armed with a Chauchat, but wounded, claimed to have killed several of the charging Germans. It was Cpl. Merrithew who accepted the surrender of the Germans and his family still has the Luger given him by the German officer. They were all recent immigrants, and could not read English, and to a man, they claim they wrote no affidavits as to York's actions. One of the affidavits was signed with an "X" by a man who could read and write, and another had the signature misspelled. It appears one of the company officers wrote the affidavits, and no one knows who signed them. To a man, the survivors claimed that the account portrayed in the movie is factually incorrect, that all of them were firing at the Germans, and they all captured the Germans as a unit. When the movie first came out, they took out a full page ad in one of the leading Boston newspapers, claiming the movie was totally bogus in almost every respect. When they tried to have a reunion, a fight almost broke out between them and York. It also appears Merrithew was as good a shot or better than York. I had no idea that this controversy existed. It seems what we have accepted as fact for decades may not be entirely true at all. They did say York was a brave man and did not want to take away any of his glory, they just wanted the Army to acknowledge the facts. Merrithew stated clearly that he would ” not have been so anxious to press this claim if it were not for the urging of my fellow survivors and friends who think a great injustice has been done”.

Only York was interviewed just after the fight.

Who knew?

jt

[Fred]

Very interesting information! Thanks for sharing.

[tmark]

Now that's a bit of info I've never came across until you posted. Thanks! No matter how many times this topic comes up, some "new" info is added. To me, the topic is not a dead horse. As long as the York topic comes up, I'll gladly read all of the posts.