Additional 1903A4s

[Luger1914]

Jim and Others:

Here is info on four additional A4s that I mentioned the other day.

ser# 3420636 with 2-44 BBL no punch mark; C stock, K in cutoff, BA11, serifed circle P on grip flat; commercial Weaver 330C, correct base and rings; mostly blued R marked parts.

ser# 3422937 with 1-44 BBL no punch mark; C stock, RA, cross cannons, FJA boxed, 3 Ps, RIA/EB boxed; M73B1, Type 2, but data plate is parked, correct rings and base; mostly parked parts.

ser# 3425071 with 2-44 BBL no punch mark; C stock, S in cutoff, BA11, serifed P; Weaver 330-M8 roll stamped on right front, correct base, but blued rings; blue and parked parts.

ser# 3423908 with 3-44 BBL no punch mark; C stock, S in cutoff, RIA/EB, 2 Ps; commercial Weaver 330, correct base and rings; parked parts.

All 3.42 mil--interesting.

Jim-any info, DCM or SRS on the Z4000723. That's it.

Charles

[George in NH]

With reference to the rifle with the 330; is that a known US military application of that scope? I have just checked page 29 of the current CMP rule book concerning Vintage Sniper rifle combinations. The rules do not allow (my reading) the use of the 330. I have a 330 with crosshair/dot combination reticle that I was going to use on a 03Aforgery in competition. Thoughts? George in NH

[Randy A]

Any of those I've seen are actually marked "M8" and are virtually the same as the 330C but had markings in up to 3 different locations. One of the forum members sent me pics of all 3 and will hopefully chime in. Very little is known about them, there was no commercial advertising of them, so there is a lot of speculation. There is no "for sure" if they preceeded the 330C, or were a transition fron the 330C to the M73B1.
Of course there are also accounts of them being found on actual combat issue WW2 rifles. I had an opportunity to pick one up and did a little asking around before I did, this is what I read,,,, hope I don't draw fire on this.

[Johnny in Texas]

They have post reticules The M8 scope are probably for a bore sighting device on a large gun I have seen several with navy marking for this purpose they were painted gray.

330C with Electro pencil markings or M73B1 marked name plate is the only way to go!!!

[jgaynor]

Charles,
Thanks very much for taking the time to track those down and post the data.

3420636 I have a double notation on this rifle SRS (CMP 1999 lottery) and an April 2010 CSP notation. In 2010 reportedly. it had an M73B1 in 2010.
The other three rifles are all new to me and have been added to the database.

As to Z4000723 I don't have an SRS listing on it but my SRS data is several years old. The SRS information on A4s was limited mainly to the CMP 1999 inventory (200~), OSS Records (12~), USMC museums (10-20~) and 6th Army Records. There may be other record troves out there yet to be explored. I don't have any of the old DCM information and I am not sure if it is available.

Regards,
Jim

[jgaynor]

With reference to the rifle with the 330; is that a known US military application of that scope? I have just checked page 29 of the current CMP rule book concerning Vintage Sniper rifle combinations. The rules do not allow (my reading) the use of the 330. I have a 330 with crosshair/dot combination reticle that I was going to use on a 03Aforgery in competition. Thoughts? George in NH

You might want to talk to the CMP. Last year they posted a note in the forum saying they would allow the "Weaver 330". Presumably this opened the door to the 330S; the 330 Scope - M.8 etc. In another section of the rules they state or imply that reticles have to be as GI issue. However the commercial reproduction scopes by Gibbs and others have coated optics, duplex reticles etc so the whole rule making section needs (IMO) some work. Also they flat out stated that any exceptions would be posted on their web site. If they did this I have not been able to find it.

Regards,

Jim

[jgaynor]

The only thing I have seen in print on the 330 Scope - M.8 :
A brief passage In Senich. "Of further interest are variants bearing an "M8" designation, which the Weaver firm cites as having been manufactured for military use during WWII as well." (Complete Book of U.S. Sniping pp. 98 (Paladin, 1988)

A brief passage in Campbell "Ordnance supplied the telescopes, the first batch of which consisted of all the Weaver 2.5X (2.75X me) commercial scopes that could be had, whether 330 Scope - M.8 with tapered post or 330C with crosshair reticle." The '03 Springfield Era pp125 (Campbell 2003)

That's basically it. No mention, that I have been able to locate, in in any TM, SNL or other publication thus far.

The manner in which the "M8's" are marked follows Weaver's commercial pattern. The markings appear at the front of the tube; at the rear of the tube and in at least one case on the W/E data plate.
No M.8's have been reported with serial numbers or GI Stock numbers which began to appear on the M73B1 by early 1945.
"M.8's" are seen with both the Click adjustment and Silent (conical) adjutment knob.
Weaver also used the "M" as part of the nomenclature on other 3/4" scopes such as the "M 3-29 Wee Weaver" and "M 4".


I suspect that the "M.8" was a commercial scope as Mr. Campbell suggests that was pressed into service in the early days of 43 when Ordnance was under the gun to get the new snipers rifle out the door.

The monthly shipments (Campbell) show monthly shipments of:
2 A4's Shipped In February 43
1,405 A4's Shipped in March 43
1 A4 Shipped in April 43
706 A4's Shipped in May 43

Thereafter shipments were a thousand or more rifles per month till near the end of production.
By committing to furnish the scopes Ordnance clearly painted the bullseye on themselves. Not hard to believe that they would have waived a minor specification (reticle) to get a critical item delivered.

Would be nice to know more. Hopefully more information will come out somewhere along the line.

Regards.

Jim

[Johnny in Texas]

If the M8 was used on early A4's why did it not get the electro pencil markings that the 330's received. I have seen dozens of M8 scopes none were marked M73B1. I think if they were used as an M73B1 they would have been marked just like the others as well as commercial Lyman Alaskans were the correct nomenclature was added by US govt.

[Randy A]

The early 330C's weren't marked as M73B1, that noumenclature came along a bit later.

[jgaynor]

I suspect that the commercial Weaver scopes (330C's and 330 Scope - M.8) accounted for the large batch of scopes delivered in March 43 and the subsequent shipment of completed rifles that same month.

Regards,

Jim