M1868 pistol

[wsfbernie]

I've read that there are only 3 50/70 pistols extant as originally requested by
Sherman. My only reference is in Richard Hosmer's book. Now I see a dealer has one
for sale, stated as being made in Dec., 1869. The stock design has many similarities
to earlier pistols, especially the brass butt. The dealer states that there were 50
total of these made. That means that only 3 are in museums, one for sale, and
46 missing. The asking price is around $17,000, so this is a serious situation.
So, first, what happened to the other 46? And, is this for real?

[Dick Hosmer]

It would help to know the dealer, and perhaps review the listing? There has been one circulating - off and on - at Gunbroker, for a couple of years now, that was commissioned by the late William Locke, an extremely wealthy, and well-liked, collector of the 1940s to 1980s, who had everything else in the US martial pistol line, even a North & Cheney, and felt the need to fill the gap, but - even with his money and connections - could not find an original. The GB ad has - so far - been clear on the fact that the piece offered was not original.

I'm not saying - though the data indicates otherwise - that there might not be one or two unaccounted for - but NOT 50!

Then of course, there is always Hollywood - the trapdoor action has been used for "pirate pistols". I once owned an 1865 First Allin example. There are a number of ID points - which have been published, so the fakers know them, too - which may separate at least some of the bad ones.

$17,000 is serious money, even today. Anyone spending that kind of dough should find out exactly what they are buying.

[John Sukey]

I have seen ONE in the Smithsonian museum. When the first one was completed, it was test fired, and broke the guy's wrist! End of that idea.
The one used in "treasure Island" was a converted 45-70 and even then, it was only shooting blanks!

[wsfbernie]

The pistol is listed as item 24285 at David Condon. Please call up the pictures and
see what you think?????????????????

[wsfbernie]

Actually, the web address is davidcondon.com item 24285
Thanks for your input!!

[Dick Hosmer]

That's scary good, as far as the aging goes,though it appears the acid might have sat too long - I've never seen the etching effect in front of the hinge pin before.

But, do I think it is real - my first judgement is no, I do not.

I will honestly state that I have never handled one of them, but I have handled a lot of TDs of that era.

What I do not like (in order of discovery, not necessarily importance):

(1) the shaping of the upper forend curve seems just a trifle "off" (just a bit too sharp)
(2) the form of hand grip does not match the specimen at SA
(3) the arm has a serial - the SA gun doesn't (removal of a serial is hard to do, was probably easier for the "builder" to leave it, and bluff)
(4) even if presence of a number is correct, the font does not appear to match the very distinctive appearance of the SA numbers, especially the "7"
(5) the sighting notch is similar in concept, but appears to be hand-filed. The SA specimen is crisply milled
(6) the front sight is too low, and sloppily applied.
(7) the barrel appears to be swamped, or not truly cylindrical, at muzzle. The SA specimen shows no such contour.
(8) while the "DEC 1869" marking is authentic as to text, the location and letter spacing is entirely different
(9) There is an awful lot of wear on the piece - too much for a brief trial, but enough to cover a lot of home craftsmanship?
(10) Price is too cheap - if it were truly real, it's worth 2-3 times that to a Daddy Warbux type.

General comments: My book does not state that exactly three were made, nor does DC's ad actually say that 50 were made. Both allow for some leeway, but are a world apart in order of magnitude. In fact, according to Al Frasca, whose word/opinion I would take over the other person's in a heartbeat, there were only two. Perhaps one of the three I cited is not authentic.

[wsfbernie]

Yeah, I checked all my old Bannerman catalogs to see if there was something on it
but I couldn't find anything. It IS scary good. At even that price, a repro could be
made profitably. I'm with you: why isn't it at auction? I appreciate your looking it over. Hard to tell by the picts, but it just seemed too good and where is the provenance? With td popularity what it is and the history following, how could one
like this stay hidden? I do believe this is a fairly well known dealer, so others must
have seen this weapon.

[Dick Hosmer]

I don't want to get started on dealers. I'm aware that I have some psychological prejudices, about the actions/habits/manner of some of them.

The thread would go on and on and on, but, let's just say he would not be on my A-list.