Organic Foods vs Big Farm Foods

[Vern Humphrey]

I think maybe he owns stock in a coffin manufacturing business and he's trying to pump it up, so he can dump it.

[John Kepler]

We also need to remember the hundreds of miners who die in the coal mines.

Where are "hundreds of coal miners" dying? NOT in the US! Underground coal mining kills on average around 3 men per annum...the #1 cause is electrocution, and 80% of that is caused by horseplay! But you are correct, roughly every 75 million tons of coal mined kills a man, which is one hell of a lot more than the entire nuclear power industry has since it began.

FWIW, coal mining in the US is HIGHLY mechanized...there are VERY few men working underground...generally fewer than 26 men per shift in a 2+ million ton per year mine, and only about 1/4 of that number at the working-face (the Long Waller that digs 90% of the coal only has 2....the rest are engaged in "setting up" panels for the Long Waller.

[Marine A5 Sniper]

Where are "hundreds of coal miners" dying? NOT in the US!

I beg to differ. Do you have ANY idea how many old miners die of diseases caused by coal mining each year?

I am well aware of the OSHA "in mine" death statistics, and the average is around 32 men per year (not 3), sometimes less, sometimes more. The death rate has varied quite a bit the last ten years. I worked for the company that developed the continuous miner (Conoco/Consolidated Coal). Long wall mining accounts for only 30% of the underground coal mined in the US, as room and pillar mining, using a continuous miner (is that what you are calling a Long Waller?), is the standard in the US.

jt

[John Kepler]

First, surface mining is actually more hazardous than deep mining...lots of people, lots of big equipment, lots of loose rock...your "32" figure includes them, my "3" is underground only. Second, coal mining isn't included in any OSHA stats....we have our very own obnoxious Federal bureaucracy called MSHA, among several others. Third....in addition to being a geologist, I spent 35 years working for a company that dug a fair amount of that black stuff...all of it out of deep mines. The last major "all conventional" mine I was in closed 24 years ago....the only conventional mines I was in after that and before I retired were "Mom and Pop" dog holes, the "bottom feeders" of the industry, using conventional mining because they can get the old, used equipment cheap! Fourth...the percentage of deep coal mines that extract coal by the long wall method is a lot closer to 60-75%, not 30% (your number is at least 20 years old)....I repeat, that is the NUMBER of mines that are using that method.....when you look at the tonnage produced, it's a lot closer to 80-90%. Conventional mining is only used when the geology of the coal seam isn't conducive to the method (some specific roof conditions preclude it, but it's usually a question of economics...Long Wallers are cheap to run....expensive to buy, so a property with a small and/or low quality coal reserve lacks the revenue potential to justify the cost) Conventional mining hasn't been the primary, let alone "standard" deep mining method for at least 20 years...Long Wall mining is, and accounts for nearly all of Eastern deep-mined coal. The fact that a unit-shift using conventional mining takes 5-6 men and only digs 1/10th the amount of coal that those 2 guys on a Long Waller do is one reason....the fact that Long Walling extracts over 80% of the coal in the seam versus a "perfect world" maximum of around 65% for conventional mining is the other.

[da gimp]

you really think they're releasing the correct figures? no groundwater contamination etc? how many 10,000's of gals of sea water were pumped in & boiled off those bad reactors? These are the same GE style reactors used in nearly all the US nucleap plants , it will happen here.............sooner or later.

Red, Brazil's economy is growing, the USA's & Brits is falling..... hell our currency has gone down in value by what 600% in the last several years? Gold was about $160.00 an ounce now it's around $1600.00 an ounce?

A very large per centage of Brazil's population is at the Stone Age level, Brittian is a 2nd world nation already & we're headed there......................

[John Kepler]

Uhh....Gimp, you act like those Japanese reactors just up and failed of their own volition one fine sunny day....you fail to mention the "little" 9.2 Richter earthquake! The reactors were designed to survive an 8.0 R quake and were hit by an event that was over 1000 times more powerful....NOT something that happens every day....and then got hit by a tsunami of unprecedented scale and power (the Japanese have been keeping good records for centuries and never recorded ANYTHING like the earthquake or tsunami that hit Fukushima).

BTW Gimp.....that "10,000 dead" figure you keep waving like a bloody shirt is the number that earthquake and tsunami caused.....the reactors haven't killed anybody to date and aren't ever likely to! Your little choo-choo hasn't chugged so far around the bend that you are claiming a "causal link" between the reactors and the largest, most powerful earthquake in the last 500+ years now are you? Oh, and since Brazil is such an "up and comer" and doing so many things right that we aren't, like turning perfectly good food into really lousy motor fuel.....how's your Portuguese language studies going and when should we start forwarding your mail?

[Marine A5 Sniper]

First, surface mining is actually more hazardous than deep mining...lots of people, lots of big equipment, lots of loose rock...your "32" figure includes them, my "3" is underground only.

I said coal mining - period. That includes all forms of coal mining, and the old miners. As I said, hundreds die every year from ailments derived from coal mining.

Second, coal mining isn't included in any OSHA stats....we have our very own obnoxious Federal bureaucracy called MSHA, among several others.

Nonsense, John. OSHA does indeed keep statistics on all deaths, including mine deaths, and has an agreement with MSHA concerning mining. This is a link to the OSHA-MSHA agreement. The statistics I used I got from an OSHA site.

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.ed...xt=laborunions

Third....in addition to being a geologist, I spent 35 years working for a company that dug a fair amount of that black stuff...all of it out of deep mines. The last major "all conventional" mine I was in closed 24 years ago....the only conventional mines I was in after that and before I retired were "Mom and Pop" dog holes, the "bottom feeders" of the industry, using conventional mining because they can get the old, used equipment cheap! Fourth...the percentage of deep coal mines that extract coal by the long wall method is a lot closer to 60-75%, not 30% (your number is at least 20 years old)....I repeat, that is the NUMBER of mines that are using that method.....when you look at the tonnage produced, it's a lot closer to 80-90%. Conventional mining is only used when the geology of the coal seam isn't conducive to the method (some specific roof conditions preclude it, but it's usually a question of economics...Long Wallers are cheap to run....expensive to buy, so a property with a small and/or low quality coal reserve lacks the revenue potential to justify the cost) Conventional mining hasn't been the primary, let alone "standard" deep mining method for at least 20 years...Long Wall mining is, and accounts for nearly all of Eastern deep-mined coal. The fact that a unit-shift using conventional mining takes 5-6 men and only digs 1/10th the amount of coal that those 2 guys on a Long Waller do is one reason....the fact that Long Walling extracts over 80% of the coal in the seam versus a "perfect world" maximum of around 65% for conventional mining is the other.

No kidding, John? How about this from the UMWA? But maybe they don't know what they are talking about; after all, they are only miners.

http://www.umwa.org/?q=content/longwall-mining

jt

[da gimp]

we have reactors located on/ or near faults just as bad........

[John Kepler]

I said coal mining - period. That includes all forms of coal mining, and the old miners. As I said, hundreds die every year from ailments derived from coal mining.

You ever dealt with any actual black lung claims "up close and personal"? I have, hundreds of them and they ALL have one thing in common......they were ALL smokers. So which came first, the chicken or the egg....the answer is entirely dependent on which lawyer you hire and what gives the largest payday!

Nonsense, John. OSHA does indeed keep statistics on all deaths, including mine deaths, and has an agreement with MSHA concerning mining. This is a link to the OSHA-MSHA agreement. The statistics I used I got from an OSHA site.

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.ed...xt=laborunions

BFD, that's a distinction without the slightest difference! MSHA keeps ALL the numbers, mines report to MSHA, not OSHA, in fact, MSHA and OSHA regularly get into expensive (to the mining company, and ultimately, you the consumer) chick-fights over whom is poaching on whose hunting preserve! That OSHA gets "CC'ed" on the MSHA numbers doesn't mean dick if you're operating a mine.

No kidding, John? How about this from the UMWA? But maybe they don't know what they are talking about; after all, they are only miners.

http://www.umwa.org/?q=content/longwall-mining

I knew that's where you got your number from! Today, the UMWA represents less than 15% of the miners working in the bituminous coal industry...and that number shrinks every year. Comforting to know they are as inaccurate as they are irrelevant in the current industry. Look up the numbers from the BCOA....they're far more accurate and far more current. My guess is that the UMWA figures represent the number of mines that they represent, not the industry as a whole. The largest, most productive mines are non-Union...the UMWA plays with the bottom-feeders.

[John Kepler]

we have reactors located on/ or near faults just as bad........

Name one and on which fault that has produced a 9.2 earthquake? Lotsa luck!