Finally shooting my 1888, observations & questions.

[Crispy]

I spent Friday the 25th at the range with my 1888 rifle, Winchester 300 gr. hollow points shoot 2 ft. high at 100 yds. Remmington 400 gr. round nose soft points shoot 1 ft. high at 100 yds. Folks here told me to expect this so no surprises really and I had no trouble staying in the black at 100 & 200 yards in fact my first shot at 200 yds. was X.
Now I have some nice once fired brass and am thinking about reloading. I want to duplicate the original government round (using smokeless) so please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I need to buy or cast 500gr. round nose for this. Yes / No?
Another observation: Guys must have been made of tougher stuff than I 120 years ago.
After 40 rounds, well, I just could'nt continue!
Chris B.

[steved66]

Crispy,

Sounds like good shooting with your 1888. I also found my 1888 pounded my shoulder unmercifully when I made up some loads with 70gr black powder. I do most of my shooting at 50yd and 100yds and I found an accurate, easy-on-the-shoulder load that you can shoot all day: 23gr Alliant 2400 w/ 405gr hollow base cast bullet.

I don't think it replicates the original gov't round but I could care less, as long as it hits the mark and doesn't give me a case of the flinch. You can find suppliers via a quick search on the Net. I cast my own bullets. I also made a taller front sight out of scrap brass to use at the range with this load. I can hit point of aim at 50yds with the battle sight setting using the taller blade. Just pop the pin from the sight base and pin in the taller blade

[Doug Rammel]

+1 on the 2400. I use 20 Grains and a 305 grain plated bullet from Berry's

[broom jockey]

Altho I have used smokeless loads in my 1884, I prefer black powder. I agree that 70 gr. BP under a 500 gr. bullet is punishing. So, I use a reduced BP load over lighter weight lead bullets. Such as, 50 gr. BP under a 300 gr. lead bullet. Of course, a filler of kapok must be used. I also load 3 .458 round balls as used 125 years ago. I never load jacketed bullets as the metal in an original barrel is much softer than modern steel barrels.

[Mark Daiute]

more'n likely someone's going to jump in and disagree with broom jockey about the jacketed, but it won't be me.

After playing some with black powder my favorite loads turned out to be 22.5 grains of 4759 under the Lee hollow based bullet cast of 20/1-lead/tin. This load matches the settings on the Buffington sight and holds the black for me and, so far as I know, it matches the government carbine load.

to replicate the government cartridges there's a wonderful book out there here's a link:

http://www.4570book.info/

Keep in mind that this book is about replicating the original cartridges and is not about cartridges tailored to your specific rifle. The author, Spence Wolfe comes right out and says this repeatedly and he points out that you should expect loads that will achieve 4' of accuracy in any trapdoor that is in good shape. I find the book both entertaining, informative and well worth the money. In advance I'll tell you that there are one or two naysayers out there.

Keep us up to date on your shooting progress!

Mark

[musculus]

Trailboss works incredibly well and doesn't beat you up (with jacketed or lead bullets).

Varget also works great, but can be punishing with heavier bullets (as can BP for that matter).

seeking to "duplicate" anything is usually a fool's errand.

putting bullets in a reasonably tight group (safely) with the rifle, bullets, powders at hand is all you need worry about.

[musculus]

Altho I have used smokeless loads in my 1884, I prefer black powder. I agree that 70 gr. BP under a 500 gr. bullet is punishing. So, I use a reduced BP load over lighter weight lead bullets. Such as, 50 gr. BP under a 300 gr. lead bullet. Of course, a filler of kapok must be used. I also load 3 .458 round balls as used 125 years ago. I never load jacketed bullets as the metal in an original barrel is much softer than modern steel barrels.

Gun show waiting line blarney. You can shoot jacketed bullets for a few LIFETIMES (say 10,000 to 20,000+ rounds or so) in a TD (or any early rifle) before you even BEGIN to see bullet induced erosion. Old barrel steel may not be 4140 CRMO, but it is still STEEL.

[Crispy]

Mark, thanks for that link, I may very well buy that book although it does seem to be oriented towards black powder.
Musculus, I appreciate your input also and tend to agree with you on barrel wear. When I wrote "duplicate" perhapse I used the wrong term. What I mean to say is I hope to find or develop a smokeless powder round that will shoot correctly in accordance with the sight markings on my rifle. I am well aware that I could simply make a shorter front blade but am not sure this would produce good results at all range settings. For now I am assuming that since the original govt. loading was a 500gr projectile, that this will be part of the formula.
If anyone would like to confirm or dispute this I welcome all opinions, especially those based on experience.
Chris B.

[musculus]

Mark, thanks for that link, I may very well buy that book although it does seem to be oriented towards black powder.
Musculus, I appreciate your input also and tend to agree with you on barrel wear. When I wrote "duplicate" perhapse I used the wrong term. What I mean to say is I hope to find or develop a smokeless powder round that will shoot correctly in accordance with the sight markings on my rifle. I am well aware that I could simply make a shorter front blade but am not sure this would produce good results at all range settings. For now I am assuming that since the original govt. loading was a 500gr projectile, that this will be part of the formula.
If anyone would like to confirm or dispute this I welcome all opinions, especially those based on experience.
Chris B.

well cast 500 grain bullets do tend to work very well in TD's, but almost ANYTHING can shoot well in a TD. Likewise, if you are posing whether 500 grain bullets will help you achieve 100 yard point of aim, the answer is a decided NO. 500 grain bullets will (tend) to impact HIGHER than 400 grain bullets etc.

But, the oft repeated concept that idea a TD is significantly "different" or "problematic" or "challenging" to load for is pure BUNK. It's a 45-70 rifle and the vast majority have right around a .450" BORE diameter. Relatively deep GROOVE diameters at modest velocities associated with shooting these rifles is not significant or hard to deal with. Any .457 jacketed bullet or any well-made and properly LUBED cast lead bullet AROUND .458" fired at modest velocity will probably work fine (to excellent even). The idea of "needing" .460 or .460+ bullets (or hollow-base bullets) is RIDICULOUS. In addition, FITTING (more like MASHING) a .461" bullet in a modern 45-70 brass/neck is much more likely to cause bullet DISTORTION as good accuracy.

I have owned around a dozen TDs over 30 years or so. While I admit that I have tried to be a bit picky about bore condition, I have yet to own a TD rifle (that I intended to shoot--vs. some 'sporterized' thing I bought to part out) that I couldn't get (easily) 3MOA groups with (well made) LEAD bullets and pretty close to 2MOA with jacketed bullets. Sometimes BETTER.

Also, you will need a TALLER front (not shorter) to ameliorate the sighting issue with TDs. You can of course make up 800-900 fps loads (Trail Boss works well here) and you will get pretty close to point of aim at 100 yards. But, for me, I just make an aiming point a foot or so low of where I want my bullets to land. Once you start shooting at 200 and 300 yard gongs or silhouettes, you will not have to worry about bullets impacting high..

[Crispy]

My intention is to shoot at 200 and 300 yards almost exclusively. Whenever I first fire a rifle that is new to me I start at 100 yards off the bench rest.
Once I am reasonably comfortable with how it's behaving I move to 200 & 300 yards and begin to practice from prone, kneeling and offhand.
Heck, the TD sight graduations begin at 200 yds.
Chris B.