serial number / year of production verification?

[Brad]

Hello friends,
I'd just like to verify that the information I found on-line is correct.
I have a model 1873 rifle that I believe to be original.
The serial number is 213979. What I have found on-line tells me it was produced in 1882?
Can anyone verify that is correct?
There is a hard to read cartouch, that could be a "fancy 1882", but I really can't tell for sure.
Thanks,
Brad Foust

[mannparks]

july-sept 1883

[Dick Hosmer]

Sorry to disagree, though it is hard to "prove". That is in the period where the aberration due to the "non-counting" of the starred receivers has maximum effect.

That number well could be late in 1882, and, it is pretty hard to confuse the cartouches, even if blurred.

205617 (an "1879" Cadet) was definitely made in 1882, and, while I do not have the notes at my finger tips, higher numbers than that are known with legitimate SWP/1882 stamps.

The oft quoted list in the back of Waite-Ernst is handy to have, and waay better than nothing, but needs to be carefully interpreted, especially the early 1880's. For some reason, the discrepancy dwindles to almost nothing by end of production.

[mannparks]

dick ,don't be sorry but please explaine for us [the period where the aberration ].--thanks charles

[Brad]

Thanks all. I really appreciate it.
I do shoot this rifle. It is in good sound and tight condition. Still, it is old.
Do you think it's ok to fire? Also, the bore is pristine.
Thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

Short version:

The .45-70 series started at 1 in 1874. FWIW, the first large production batch were carbines, since the cavalry did not, at that time, have one standard arm - existing on a mix of Spencers, Sharps, 1870 trials pieces, etc.

The number of guns made was recorded by quarter, and, until 1881, a total of those figures was a pretty reliable indicator of serial number vs. year of production, even though (a) arms were not assembled in order (b) receiver production was kept about a month ahead of final assembly, and (c) parts barrels/bins/carts were emptied by the FILO (first in, last out) method.

In 1878, at 96300, the receiver and block were widened.

In 1879/1880 a recall (not 100% successful) was issued for all guns under 50000. Don't ask me why that number, which makes zero sense - I'd simply have recalled all the narrow receivers!

The serviceable parts from these (locks, triggers, bands, springs, tips, screws) were used - in conjunction with new barreled actions and stocks - to produce the arms now found with a star after the serial number. These were considered second-line arms, for reserve, and were paid for by funds set aside for "arming and equipping the militia". They used numbered receivers taken from the main sequence (no "duplicates" have ever been found) but - and here is what causes the problem - they were not counted as new arms made.

So, the running tally of arms made vs. actual number stamped thereon, and as related to dated cartouche, was no longer accurate. At its' worst, it is about 22,000-25,000 off. However, for some inexplicable reason, the gap lessens gradually over the years until things are pretty well back in phase by 1894. That is the part that I do not understand, though it may somehow be connected to some of the unexplainably low numbers in the M1888 rod-bayonet model.

Bottom line: Numbers somewhat (see above) higher for a given dated cartouche than those expected by simply counting guns made to date, which is the basis of the chart in Waite/Ernst, may well be - subject to the usual scrutiny as to matching finish, patina, known features, etc. - perfectly legitimate.

[mannparks]

thanks dick ,we realy welcome this info.
now you CAN get back to that book. ---charles

[Brad]

As always, thanks.
Is there an "on-line" chart that would show the s/n and production year info?
I have two more to check-out and dont wont to bother you guys with every little thing?
Thanks again

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, go to www.trapdoorcollector.com, and check out "Production Data"

That is the only on-line source I know of which shows the differentiation between the theoretical numbering based on annual production, and numbers actually observed.

[Brad]

thanks again
Take care all