hammer down on loaded chamber

[albert]

None of the rifles you mentioned can be carried with the hammer down on a live round without a lot of fiddling, and then .

Art I agree you are exactly right about the hammer but wouldn't one of those rifles, cocked with the safety on, be every bit as dangerous as the 1911 hammer down with one in the chamber?

[joem]

I fumbled the hammer on a 1897 Winchester while hunting. It was pretty cold and raining. Had it pointed up and it split the end of my thumb open. No other damage.

[albert]

I have a Field Manual FM23-36 for the Colt and S&W 1917 revolvers. It shows two methods for cocking the revolver for single action firing. In both methods the pictures show the soldiers finger on the trigger during the cocking of the revolver.

Handling the 1911, I noticed that the thumb safety renders the trigger inoperative when you lift your thumb to cock the hammer. It's the only real reason I can see to have it on the gun. Of course I recognize the danger of having a finger anywhere near the trigger so don't burn me about this comment

[Art]

Art I agree you are exactly right about the hammer but wouldn't one of those rifles, cocked with the safety on, be every bit as dangerous as the 1911 hammer down with one in the chamber?

To me it's complete apples and oranges. The correct analogy to the rifles you mentioned is a loaded cocked M1911 pistol with safety on.

For the life of me I can't see why anyone would carry an M1911 pistol with a loaded chamber and the hammer down, it is very slow to get into action in that mode, in fact slower than any other method of carry including an empty chamber with a loaded magazine inserted which was military SOP in most places for many years.

[Rock]

To me it's complete apples and oranges. The correct analogy to the rifles you mentioned is a loaded cocked M1911 pistol with safety on.

I think I know what he is asking.

All of the arms mentioned have firing pins that are floating, whether their hammers are cocked or down. If you dropped a loaded Garand, muzzle first, from a second story, onto concrete, the firing pin could continue forward on inertia, just the same as it would if you dropped a 1911 on its muzzle.

[Johnny P]

For the life of me I can't see why anyone would carry an M1911 pistol with a loaded chamber and the hammer down, it is very slow to get into action in that mode, in fact slower than any other method of carry including an empty chamber with a loaded magazine inserted which was military SOP in most places for many years.

You have to remember that the Model 1911 was designed for the military, and for what they thought met their needs. A mounted trooper with a Model 1911 and an empty chamber either had a pistol without a round in the chamber, or if he managed to pull the slide back, then had a pistol with a round in the chamber and the hammer back. Now, if the trooper did not fire his pistol he was left with a pistol ready to fire, and this was why the safety lock was added. Additionally, the cavalry complained about the hammer of the Model 1911 being too short, and in 1914 the hammer spur was lengthened.

The prototypes of what eventually became the Model 1911 did not even have a safety lock until the very last prototype, the Model of 1911 Special Army. There had been several years of development before the safety lock was even requested.

[NMC_EXP]

Maybe one of you M1911 guys have seen this story - Years ago I read an account from the horse cavalry days (might have been during the Punitive Expedition against Mexico?) involving either Pershing or his aide Patton.

Seems his horse stumbled or went down, dumping the rider hard. He did not notice it during all the commotion at the time but later, back in camp he found a hole in the end of his holster. Pulled out the pistol and found the safety was still on but there was a fired case in the chamber.

The conclusion was that a hard blow on the muzzle could fire a chambered round.

I do not recall if it was carried hammer up or hammer down.

Regards

Jim

[Johnny P]

If he was carrying it according to regulations, it was hammer down. Stories abound, but after all, there is some inherent danger in just about every weapon. The early Glock storage box is a case in point.

[Johnny in Texas]

Before I understood the 1911 operation and design I had 2 accidental discharges lowering the hammer on a live round . The hammer slipped both times in a safe direction. Now I put them in the safe place with loaded mag. empty chamber and when I carry they are loaded round in chamber cocked and locked.

[Johnny P]

Carrying the Model 1911 cocked and locked was not a part of the original design. Until the advent of the decocker, any pistol with an external hammer had to have the hammer lowered on a live round if it was cocked and then not fired.

If lowering the hammer presents a problem, dropping the magazine and ejecting the cartridge might be a better idea.